Plate doesn't fall, what do you do?

[mhs]

If you are CRO on a stage and running a competitor, and he hits but does not knock over a plate, do you immediately stop him? How about if you're running the clipboard and notice that a plate has been hit and not knocked over? Do you let the CRO know? Yell "Stop"?

[juan]

I would stop him

if i had the clip board, dont know? maybe.

hope that clears it up.

[Flatland Shooter]

If the plate was hit and it fails to fall, its range equipment failure and the RO order a reshoot. {Rule 4.3.1.6}

If the shooter "misses" a plate, the stage will be scored with the plate a miss. {Rule 4.3.1.5}

And if the RO advises the shooter that he has missed the plate, it can be construed as "coaching" and at the discretion of the RO, the shooter or the coach may incur a penalty. {Rule 8.6.2} Exception for Level 1 {Rule 8.6.2.1}

Now I've not seen an RO give themselves a procedural but, what the heck, a rule is a rule.

Bill

[Flatland Shooter]

If the plate was hit and it fails to fall, its range equipment failure and the RO order a reshoot. {Rule 4.3.1.6}

If the shooter "misses" a plate, the stage will be scored with the plate a miss. {Rule 4.3.1.5}

Its probably best to allow the shooter to finish the stage to make sure that mark on the plate was a hit and not some visiting horse fly, but on Level 1 stages I've seen the RO (including myself) stop the shooter if its obvious that he does not intend to reengage the plate or it's obviously hit and he's moved on.

And if the RO advises the shooter that he has missed the plate, it can be construed as "coaching" and at the discretion of the RO, the shooter or the coach may incur a penalty. {Rule 8.6.2} Exception for Level 1 {Rule 8.6.2.1}

Now I've not seen an RO give themselves a procedural but, what the heck, a rule is a rule.

Bill

Edited February 6, 2010 by Flatland Shooter

[LPatterson]

If you are CRO on a stage and running a competitor, and he hits but does not knock over a plate, do you immediately stop him? How about if you're running the clipboard and notice that a plate has been hit and not knocked over? Do you let the CRO know? Yell "Stop"?

4.3.1.6 applies and the shooter should be stopped immediately and reshot after the problem is corrected. The person on the clipboard is normally a RO so yes "STOP" is appropriate and the CRO should be informed. When on the clipboard it is also your duty to watch for foot faults and other things happening outside the area of the shooter. The CRO is primarily focused on the shooter so may hear a ding of steel and not see if a plate has fallen or not or if it were a strike on the support that caused that plate to fall.

[mhs]

The rule is nice and clear that this is a re-shoot, but as a mattter of practice I've been to several club matches where they don't stop you, and don't offer a re-shoot if you knock the plate down with a second shot.

Next time I run a stage with plates I'll make it a point to ask the other RO's to shout out "Stop" if they clearly see a hit that does not knock the plate over.

As a shooter, would you stop yourself if you were certain that you hit a plate and it didn't fall?

[High Lord Gomer]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

[John Baier]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Good Advice

[mhs]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Good Advice

This is one of those gray areas for me. If I'm certain I hit a plate, and it didn't fall, and the RO doesn't stop me, I'm not sure that if I shoot it and knock it over that I can get a re-shoot. If I stop, and then have a plate with a bullet mark or that is turned, I should get a re-shoot. This is the kind of thing I need to have set in my mind before I shoot a stage. I've pretty much decided that if I obviously turn a plate, and it doesn't fall, I'll stop.

[wide45]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Good Advice

This is one of those gray areas for me. If I'm certain I hit a plate, and it didn't fall, and the RO doesn't stop me, I'm not sure that if I shoot it and knock it over that I can get a re-shoot. If I stop, and then have a plate with a bullet mark or that is turned, I should get a re-shoot. This is the kind of thing I need to have set in my mind before I shoot a stage. I've pretty much decided that if I obviously turn a plate, and it doesn't fall, I'll stop.

Don't stop. Leave the marked/turned plate, and finish the stage. A reshoot will be in order, but not all clubs follow the rules as they should. Worst case, you have one miss.

[steel1212]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Good Advice

This is one of those gray areas for me. If I'm certain I hit a plate, and it didn't fall, and the RO doesn't stop me, I'm not sure that if I shoot it and knock it over that I can get a re-shoot. If I stop, and then have a plate with a bullet mark or that is turned, I should get a re-shoot. This is the kind of thing I need to have set in my mind before I shoot a stage. I've pretty much decided that if I obviously turn a plate, and it doesn't fall, I'll stop.

Don't stop. Leave the marked/turned plate, and finish the stage. A reshoot will be in order, but not all clubs follow the rules as they should. Worst case, you have one miss.

Know the rules, have a rule book handy. If you have a painted plate with a hit on it and is sideways and you don't get stopped or a reshoot show them the book and DEMAND it. If they are running a USPSA match they should be following the rules. The RO disagrees get the MD. Plates are touchy and really almost require a decent base where if they are turned a little bit they will fall off. My club doesn't have good bases and we try not to use plates because of this.

[Nik Habicht]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Good Advice

This is one of those gray areas for me. If I'm certain I hit a plate, and it didn't fall, and the RO doesn't stop me, I'm not sure that if I shoot it and knock it over that I can get a re-shoot. If I stop, and then have a plate with a bullet mark or that is turned, I should get a re-shoot. This is the kind of thing I need to have set in my mind before I shoot a stage. I've pretty much decided that if I obviously turn a plate, and it doesn't fall, I'll stop.

Don't stop -- move on. If you shoot the plate down, who know how the call will go (as opposed to how it should go.) The other thing about plates is that the RO needs to make the determination of where/what was hit, in order to determine whether it's good or REF (plate is hit but doesn't fall, plate is hit but spins, plate fall due to a hit on the stand, etc.) -- so if you stop you're hanging your stage (and match) results on what the RO saw or didn't see....

[kevin c]

I agree - move on. You finish the stage and you get a score with a reasonable time. You might have a miss, but I'm willing to wager that, if you stop and wait for the RO to acknowlege the REF and he doesn't, the time wasted and the mental monkey wrench will cost you a lot more stage points than the mike.

Besides, if you do get the RS, you've just had a live fire practice run on the stage. More shooting is good

[mactiger]

If you are CRO on a stage and running a competitor, and he hits but does not knock over a plate, do you immediately stop him? How about if you're running the clipboard and notice that a plate has been hit and not knocked over? Do you let the CRO know? Yell "Stop"?

Yes to all those questions. It's REF, and a required reshoot.

The scorekeeping Range Officer is an RO also, and can make any and all calls the one holding the timer can.

Troy

[mwx40x40]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Wish this applied to shotgun as well

[Flatland Shooter]

If I am the RO or score keeper, I typically will allow the shooter to finish the stage unless I'm 100% certain they have hit the plate and it fails to fall. But since I'm more interested in safety I'm a little busy watching the shooter and his firearm. I'm not watching down range to see if he hit the steel and if the steel has fallen.

So after the shooter has finished the stage and there is a problem, we can safely go to the offending plate to accurately determine what the call should be.

I've never had a competitor complain that I should have stopped them due to a bad plate, but I have seen an RO stop a shooter for a plate that did not fall to be advised by the slightly pissed shooter he had not yet engaged that plate.

Bill

[wide45]

Rules are that a shot on the stand that drops the plate, or a hit on the plate that fails to drop it, requires a reshoot.

If no official watches the plates, you can't consistently tell when a reshoot is required.

Ignoring the possibility, is ignoring the rules.

[Flatland Shooter]

Rules are that a shot on the stand that drops the plate, or a hit on the plate that fails to drop it, requires a reshoot.

If no official watches the plates, you can't consistently tell when a reshoot is required.

Ignoring the possibility, is ignoring the rules.

Hence the requirement that steel be painted between shooters.

Bill

[High Lord Gomer]

I learned the hard way that you don't stop yourself unless it is a safety issue. *You* may think you hit the plate, but if the RO doesn't, you may not get a reshoot and stand to have your stage scored "as shot" when you stop.

Wish this applied to shotgun as well

You were robbed! You absolutely smoked the shotgun portion of the 2-gun match Saturday. I'll see if I can post video of it.

[LPatterson]

Rules are that a shot on the stand that drops the plate, or a hit on the plate that fails to drop it, requires a reshoot.

If no official watches the plates, you can't consistently tell when a reshoot is required.

Ignoring the possibility, is ignoring the rules.

Hence the requirement that steel be painted between shooters.

Bill

See 4.3.1.7.1 Level I matches are encouraged to paint whenever possible, but are not required to do so.

Whenever possible where plates are involved I try to position myself so I am looking over the shooters shoulder or along their arm as I have seen too many occurances of a shot hitting the support and had the shooter ready to swear on a stack of bibles that the shot hit the plate.

[matt2ace]

My club switched to hinged plates that are checked for calibration just like poppers at the beginning of the match. If the popper was obviously hit, but did not fall, the shooter can (should) request a calibration check. If plate does not fall when checked, they get a reshoot, if it falls, it is scored as a miss.

[Flatland Shooter]

My club switched to hinged plates that are checked for calibration just like poppers at the beginning of the match. If the popper was obviously hit, but did not fall, the shooter can (should) request a calibration check. If plate does not fall when checked, they get a reshoot, if it falls, it is scored as a miss.

That will work nicely for Level 1 matches but would not be legal for Level 2 or higher. Steel targets are limited to those in the

rule book. {Poppers in B4 and plates in B5.} And per Rule 4.3.1.6, authorized metal plates are not subject to calibration or challenge.

Bill

[mactiger]

My club switched to hinged plates that are checked for calibration just like poppers at the beginning of the match. If the popper was obviously hit, but did not fall, the shooter can (should) request a calibration check. If plate does not fall when checked, they get a reshoot, if it falls, it is scored as a miss.

This isn't legal per the rules. Plates are not calibrated, ever, even if they are hinged (and hinged plates are a legal target, they just have to fall when hit).

The score keeping RO does not need to watch the competitor's gun/hands all the time, their job is to watch the "bigger picture", as well as look for safety problems.

Troy

[matt2ace]

Yes, I understand the rules about plates not requiring calibration since they must fall. The advantage of hinged plates is that it removes some of the problems encountered with plates.

One thing I did find when using plates was to assure that everyone was trained on how to place a plate on whatever base was used. If the plate is positioned at the back edge of the base it is very rare that a hit will spin it, even an edge hit.

[Flatland Shooter]

The score keeping RO does not need to watch the competitor's gun/hands all the time, their job is to watch the "bigger picture", as well as look for safety problems.

Troy

I'll agree with that statement as long as someone does not interpret it to mean the RO should see every hit/miss on steel. There are times, most often due to stage design, where it cannot be done.

Bill