Are Ipsc Jhp's Effective At Expanding?

[Bill Schwab]

I know this is not a 100% appropriate question for Brian's forums, but you guys would know best....

Are the JHP's we use in open gun loads at all effective in expanding like self defense JHP's that are specifically designed to expand?

I was contemplating how the hollowpoint boatail bullets used in rifle competition are not to be used for hunting because they aren't designed to expand, and was paralleling it to IPSC bullets.

Just curious....

[George]

The JHP I use in my open gun is a Remington premium JHP (Golden Sabre) and it is gonna work exactly as designed at 1360 fps (the idea that my open loading is a great defense round kinda appeals to me).

All of the other JHP's I have tried (Bulk WW JHP's from Dillon and Speer Gold Dots), are definitely intended for the use you are thinking of as long as the velocity is sufficient (no problem at IPSC or USPSA major PF). So as long as they are well constructed they should perform well terminally. I believe that as far as commercial pistol projectiles go, a JHP is a JHP and all it needs is the right velocity. Some are built better than others, but price should not be a factor for this type of choice.

I got a thousand WW 55gr Soft Point .223 bullets from a prize table a few years back and found that 27.5gr of 748 and an OAL of 2.225" gives 100% function in all of my AR's and shoots to same POA as my standard 55gr ball loading which I have a recorded zero for.

Massad Ayoob did however say something worth thinking about in reference to handloading self defense ammunition. It doesn't look as good in court as factory stuff does when a legal team with an agenda purveys the idea that you home brewed extra-ordinarily lethal ammo.

To that end I keep WW SilverTips around in a couple of calibers for any potential social events.

Regards,

[George]

BTW, here are some handgun ammo test results for perusal.

http://www.ammolab.com/Test%20Results.htm

[Flexmoney]

I understand that a well-feed groundhog can walk away from 3 solid hits with Speer 124JHP's doing 1350+. I would have to think they are punching thru.

[eric nielsen]

"Don't drive angry..."

Bill Murray - Groundhog Day

[George]

I understand that a well-feed groundhog can walk away from 3 solid hits with Speer 124JHP's doing 1350+. I would have to think they are punching thru

I'm thinking that a .357 magnum pushing a 125gr JHP at 1450 fps would do an even better job punching through an over-fed anything ;-)

Regards,

[B.J. Norris]

My 125 Zero JHP's loaded at a 173 PF can come close to tearing a gallon water jug in half when full.

[rhino]

II was contemplating how the hollowpoint boatail bullets used in rifle competition are not to be used for hunting because they aren't designed to expand, and was paralleling it to IPSC bullets.

That's why some people are now calling the non-expanding hollow points "open-tipped match" (OTM) bullets.

Some of which, by the way, are superb for personal defense and combat use because they fragment nicely when they hit flesh.

[ErikW]

Bill, not all JHPs are created equal. The expanding ones are designed using fluid dynamics for controlled expansion within a given velocity envelope. Pushing some JHPs to Major velocities might turn them into low-penetration disintegrating bullets. OTOH, running other JHPs too slow may turn them into over-penetrating, non-expanding slugs. Match-only JHPs such as Hornady HAP are not specifically designed for expansion; who knows what results you would get?

If you need a specific answer, it would be best to contact the bullet manufacturer about a specific bullet. My guess is that only the big factories have done enough scientific design and testing to fully quantify the penetration, expansion, and velocity envelopes. (I think they would be reluctant to share this data.) Somehow I can't imagine that Norm and Jolene at Montana Gold (or the other relatively mom-and-pop operations) went to the effort of firing all their JHPs at various velocities into ballistic gelatin.

I'll go out on a limb and take a wild-ass guess that most of the non-defensive-engineered JHPs pushed to Major in Open guns would penetrate insufficiently, shed their jackets, and break up. I think they need to do some serious engineering to bond the jackets to their lead cores to keep a 115 JHP together at 1470 fps.

[gm iprod]

Montana Gold JHP proojectiles are used by a couple of ammunition manufacturers, so I expect they are using them because they shoot better or work they way JHP's are supposed to.

Zero make new and remanufactured ammo for Police and general sales so I expect the same from them.

Hornady use their bullets in ammo, some of which is stinking hot.

Sierra's are used by a couple of makers.

So I would say all in all there is a good chance one or the other of these is going to do what you want.

I have used the 121gr and the 125gr JHP Zero's and the 125gr JHP from MG in the 9mm Ruger Carbine on goats. It was a definite win to the projectiles. All performed well at around 1450fps at muzzle, the goats were hit at between 35 and 75 yards so the velocity would be down to about 1200fps at 75. Most bullets were well broken up if they hit bone going in, or expanded reliably when into soft flesh. None over penetrated and all goats were incapacitated briskly.

Some required finishing as they were being unco-operative, but I have seen them do the same when hit with a HOT 357 158gr as well.

So when most types of 9mm JHP are flying about don't stand in front of one, you will be unwell.

[George]

I'm with gm iprod, if the JHP's are well made premium grade ones from any major manufacturer and you put them downrange at anywhere from 1200 to 1500 fps, you are gonna' get pretty good terminal results.

The Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Silvertip, Speer Gold Dot and the Sierra SportsMaster are all examples of JHP's designed for the job. The Montana Gold and Zero JHP's are not junk either and should perform very well anywhere in the 1250 to 1450 fps IPSC velocity range.

The .38 super or 9xanything racegun is an ideal platform for a premium 124 gr JHP projectile. At 1360-1380 fps it's getting real close to the .357 magnum performance level.

Regards,

[short_round]

Thread drift ....

Does anyone have any experience using Montana Gold 230gr JHP's in 45 Super with the intent for hunting? If not the Montana Gold then is there another bullet anyone would recommend?

I've been told that local regulations state that you need 500 ft lbs @ 100 yds for a load to be legal for hunting. For some reason I have this translating to about a muzzle velocity of 1200 fps with a 230gr JHP bullet.

I have to confess, I've never loaded for handgun hunting. However, I sold my old press to someone new to reloading who has the express intent of loading up 45 Super for hunting and I'm helping him out. Of course I'm going to try to push the MG's so I can add it and make my order bigger

I found the thread on where to get the load data, but I want to make sure he uses JHP's that perform as they are intended. If he really does use them for hunting it would be irresponsible to use the wrong bullet.

Thanks in advance.

p.s. I'm planning to have him get Starline .45 +P brass and maybe Power Pistol. Any comments?

[David Olhasso]

Not all JHPs are created equal. One example where the competiton head is not valid for "other uses" is the Hornady HAP (Hornady action pistol) line of bullets. These are specifically not meant for anything other than competition. If you want a Hornady handgun bullet for other uses, then it needs to be an XTP.

[Merlin Orr]

Continuing thread drift.

230 x 1200fps = a Whole Bunch. Thats a little extreme for a .45 Super is it not?

[short_round]

230 x 1200fps = a Whole Bunch. Thats a little extreme for a .45 Super is it not?

Whooops. That's right. I'll have to reorganize my notes before I get to loading.

Please reference http://www.realguns.com/loads/45Super.htm provided by Run n Gun from here in a separate thread for anyone reading about Super for the first time.

Disclaimer: Before anyone tries any of this out, triple check your info and for heavens sake work your way up and chrono. Guessing is really bad for hot loads.

[TBF]

Before anyone tries any of this out, triple check your info and for heavens sake work your way up and chrono. Guessing is really bad for hot loads.

Short round,

Your friend might be well served by 230 gr. Rem Golden Sabre bullets, they are coming out with a bonded core version soon. They can withstand any launch velocity I can muster in a carbine. Hornady XTP or XTP/ Mag are also spoken of highly by hunters.

Also , Hodgdon Longshot and Alliant Blue dot might be worth looking at for powder choices.

I can personally attest to the 150gr. 308 Sierra matchking not being suitable for other than competition in 300WSM, they explode water jugs nicely, but would be a very poor hunting bullet, too thin skinned for anything over 6" thick.

Travis F.

[short_round]

Thanks TBF. I'll post a follow up whe the project gets going and finishes.