Scott R

Ties into this one nicely.... http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=48265&st=0 JT IDPA rules ties into USPSA rules..........this should get entertaining.

Beneficial, Hmmmm.................I'm not going to touch that one. But I bet they could learn to feed themselves if the free food were taken away. Hell, their migratory flight path may even slow to a crawl.

Here is where the 61% came from http://abcnews.go.com/images/US/1037a1VaTechGuns.pdf This is not the online poll I voted on . It is amazing however that the online polls differ from this data (I have seen 3 different online polls that were all at least 3 to 1 in favor of less restrictive gun control). Makes you wonder whow they send the questionares to.

I have 4 of them ( 2 lim guns and 2 open ). Don't know of any benefits other than they are tool-less, and that is enough for me.

If poi is climbing when barrel gets hot it could be due to round cooking in chamber and giving more fps. Not sure if you could get 8" at 300yd due to this alone.

Except that if "allied equipment" includes magazines for the purpose of location in Production division, then how does "allied equipment" not include magazines for the purpose of "the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment" as worded in 5.2.3 ? Are magazines allied equipment or not ? Please understand that I am not doing this to be argumentative, only to point out that in the current rule book the definition of allied equipment seems to take on different meanings.

You could also sell him 1000 used brass, 1000 bullets, and the appropriate amount of powder. Then assemble them to his specs and ship them ORMD . Just kidding.....too much liability with that plan. The best bet is to sell them local, face to face.

The problem is there are conflicting interpretations of what allied equipment consists of. There are those that say the following rule does not include magazines as allied equipment, or at least that they do not have to be attached to the belt. 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops. But then there is this...... (pertaining to US Production division) 20. Neither the handgun, nor any of its attachments, nor any allied equipment (e.g. magazines or other loading devices), can extend forward of the line illustrated in Appendix F3. Any such items a Range Officer deems not to be in compliance must be safely and promptly adjusted, failing which Rule 6.2.5.1 will apply. and this...... 5.2.4 Spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices should be carried in retention devices specifically designed for that purpose, to reduce the risk of loss during a course of fire. Hmmmmmm............It would appear that you should carry your magazines on your belt, but if you don't then you can carry them anywhere within 50mm of you torso (front pocket, back pocket, shirt pocket, special gamers pocket) in any division. Maybe the future rule book will clear this up.

Both of these offer several different styles of rifle grade targets. MGMs Auto popper with sniper base is probably closest to your specs. http://www.mgmtargets.com/products/auto_poppers.shtml http://www.gunsteel.com/HOME.HTM

Ok guys, after putting further thought into the Space City stage here is my dilema. Under the current rule book If I want the shooter to make the initial load from the belt then I must specify in the WSB that ammo may only be on the belt, if I do that then the shooters that don't have enough retention devices/room on the belt are hosed. So here is my final fix. I have removed all wording concerning ammo placement in the start position. Feel free to game within the confines of the rule book.

Yes, and sorry it got this confusing, all I was trying to accomplish was a start position that was consistent and not prone to gimmicks, save the gaming for after the buzzer.

I designed a stage for Space City with this type of start position (may even be the one in question ) so I sent an e-mail to NROI and here is the response. Hi Scott, 5.2.3 pertains to the belt and allied equipment must be worn at waist level, unless otherwise specified in the WSB, the key word here, is must. 5.2.5.3 pertains to the position that the holster and allied equipment must be worn, such as in Production, rearward of the hip bone, and not moved, unless other wise specified, again, the key word is must. 5.2.4 pertains to spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices, it states that they SHOULD be carried in retention devices.. It has always been, that once they have exhausted the ammo on their belt, they could use ones in their pockets, but that wording has been removed from the current rule book, leaving it to interpretation.. The draft rules for 2008, have changed the language of 5.2.4, once the BOD votes to approve the rules, and if they are not changed, it will read: 5.2.4 During the course of fire, after the load and make ready command, unless stipulated otherwise in the stage procedure, spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose. A competitor may, after exhausting or losing those spare magazines or speed loading devices, retrieve extra magazines or speed loading devices from his pockets without penalty. Regards, John Amidon VP USPSA Director NROI Now considering that the rules in effect currently don't spell out where the ammo must be prior to the start signal and this stage starts with an unloaded gun, to avoid crazy antics (mags in shirt pocket, magnets sewn into front of shirt etc. ) I decided to word it as all ammo on belt and hope that the ROs don't insist that everyone have those Cowboy loops, except maybe Shred . I guess it's not too late to change the wording to "spare ammunition, magazines and speed loading devices shall be carried in retention devices attached to the competitor's belt and specifically designed for that purpose". So much for being lazy and not using the big words.

It DOES say "all ammo on belt" That was my point......not pockets.

Yes, you can load from a pocket. The stage description says "all ammo on belt" because they don't want you to have a magazine on the table, which would be the quickest way. Chuck, That's why the stage designer included that line in there, so you don't put a mag on the table. Just saying "Start Position Seated in chair. Gun lying flat on table unloaded hammer down" was not enough. Then the magazine that is in your gun is NOT in compliance with the rules. I think that the "allied component" refers to the mag pouches. Hmmmmmm...........The WSB could have said all ammo on belt or in pockets if that is what he wanted, or simply no ammo on table. It looks like you are trying to read more into the WSB than is stated.

In my opinion magazines are a component of your allied equipment and the following rules address the location of these. 5.2.3 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, the belt carrying the holster and all allied equipment must be worn at waist level. The belt or the inner belt or both must be either permanently fixed at the waist, or secured with a minimum of three belt loops 5.2.5.3 Unless specified in the written stage briefing, or unless required by a Range Officer, the position of holsters and allied equipment must not be moved or changed by a competitor during a match. If a retaining strap is attached to a holster, it must be applied or closed prior to issuance of the “Standby” command (see Rule 8.3.3). Also note the "Unless specified in the written stage briefing" clause which would allow the course designer to specify location of ammo prior to the start signal. There are worse places he could have specified

I agree that the shooter should have been DQd. In my opinion where the problem occured is when he could not confirm visually that the firearm was infact unloaded he should have asked for more light and stood with the slide back and muzzle facing downrange until someone obliged him. And if that upset anyone then so be it, safety must come first.

Due to the layout & timeframes of this match the shooter has to come off the line immediately after UASC so the next shooter can shoot. You get to check your targets with a paster gun in your hand when the squad of 5 is finished shooting. And like I said the only light that could be on was the RO's red light. Sounds like in the interest of time the match officials decided to put safety on the back burner. If the shooter or SO could not see whether the gun was unloaded then clearly there was not enough light used. "I'm afraid I'll loose my night vision" is not a good excuse for ignoring safety.

Absoluteltyneed not be present to win. The only thing you will have to be registered by Saturday afternoon. I don't expect tha to be an issue So those that show up late Saturday or Sunday morning loose out on the prize table? Wasn't the prize table done while waiting on final results last year? Everyone would be registered at that point.

Hmmmm.....there is still time to make minor changes to the start position. Lets see....all ammo stuffed in socks or empty mags on belt and loose ammo in pockets.......I'll get back to you

Here is one maker of them http://www.gunsteel.com/clam.html , there may be others.

Here is a good picture that shows the tab. http://www.midwayusa.com/mediasvr.dll/high...leitemid=493863

You may want to check your mags with +2 base pads in a mag gauge before going to a major match. You could find yourself shooting in open division .

Lee, this statement seems to imply the we "gamers" are going beyond what the rules and/or written stage briefing would allow. I say that you are wrong! We "gamers" are simply suggesting that one of the biggest things that attracts us to USPSA matches is the fact that we are not only allowed to think outside of the box, but compelled to do so by good stage design in which we as shooters assess our skills and formulate a plan of attack that will earn us the highest hit factor we are capable of within the bondaries of the rules and written stage briefing. There are many other shooting sports that do not allow a freestyle type of approach, hell some of them want you to stand still and shoot . While I am not suggesting that you give up USPSA for one of the others, it would be nice if you didn't put down those of us who enjoy the freestyle element of USPSA.

Very well said XRe

It would kinda help to know if there are going to be Sunday squads(vacation requests, hotel reservations, etc.)