ArnisAndyz

Nice shotgun, thought about picking one up myself....but your giving up 2 rounds to the competition in 3-gun, which equates to alot of time. If your just doing it for the fun of it then you'll be fine, just be aware (and don't get frustrated) because many shotgun stages are designed with 9 rounds in mind. The moment you start feeling competitive look into a SX2 Practical, same gun but built for 3-gunning. Also, be sure it runs with light target loads.

One problem you might encounter with the 1187 is that you have the "Police" model which is designed to be used with self-defense (heavier) rounds. don't know about your area, but our steel is calibrated for 71/2 birdshot, so be sure you test your Police with those light rounds. If you can shoot heavier loads (many ranges won't let you shoot less than #6 because it might damage steels) you'll be at a handicap shooting harder recoiling shells vs light target loads. Do a search on Remington's Barrel Seal Activator. Its an accessory that comes with the Super Magnum for shooting light loads, it may work with the police model. Another thing with the 1187 police is that your limited to 7+1, where most shooters will have 9 in the gun. I shoot a pump action and can hold my own at the local club level. I actually came in first place overall on two different stages using my pump gun against limited and open semi-autos,although I didn't do as good overall. Until you get into the big leagues, a pump will serve you well. A pump will also allow you to shoot the lightest loads with no malfuctions (other than operator induced). That being said... I shoot in HeMan division which requires the use of a pump, I probably would use a semiauto for shooting in limited or tactical.

I'm really new to Practical shooting, but I'm starting to learn slowly what you guys are talking about with calling the shot. For me. I think it a matter of TRUST in my shot. it seems its not only sight verification but a "feeling" or 'knowing" that you took a good shot. From practice, I know where my body mechanics and alignment should be when the shot breaks, AND I know where the sights should be, it just feels right. I have seen people at matches verifying thier shot visually be seeing the holes in the paper. To me, this isn't calling the shot, its living in the past. If I can feel its a good shot when I pull the trigger I can develop a flow and my transitions are smoother. When I "try" to call a shot I'm searching, focusing my energies on what I did instead of what I should be doing. I can't do it consistently...yet, but I have felt it, usually on my best stages!

I've been using 5.0 grains of W231 under a 200gr lead round nose. Haven't chrono'd it yet but on paper it "should" produce a velocity of 840fps or 168PF for IDPA CDP. Checkout handloads.com, thier download calculator is pretty helpful. You most likey will have to go with a lighter spring (12-14 lb)?

ObNote: In USPSA's flavor of Heavy Metal, the rifle ammo has to "make major". Sort of helps keep the spirit of "He Man" intact.... I hear ya...but these rounds are at SUPER HEMAN level! We had one stage where we had to shoot a steel then paper, steel, then paper, etc... everyone else in HeMan had a nice "gong" compaired to the ARs, but when I shot it, it went GONG!!! It's loads of fun, but I'd like to download it just enough to make major. Hemen can be gamers too! (By the way, I'm probably the smallest Heman there is!)

I just got an excellent deal on Surplus 308 ammo (cheaper than buying the individual components for reloading). They shoot accurate enough and have been reliable, I haven't chrono'd them yet, but they do have considerable recoil, probably way over minimum power floor. I pulled a sampling and took an average of the powder charge...it looks like 43.6 grains of some short stick type powder (unknown since its surplus). With the powder being an unkown, I can't look it up in the manuals, I don't know what the minimum starting point would be. Is it safe to use the known charge of 43.6 grains and work down from that maybe one grain at a time? I'm shooting an HK91 which requires a pretty stout load to work the action, I was thinking of downloading until the gun doesn't cycle reliably and bumping it back up slightly for reliability. Do you think the reduced recoil will be worth the time? Will I be able to tell the difference by removing a couple grains? I know its not a very "Heman" thing to do, but its not cheating if I'm not breaking any rules! TIA

Hi RT! I remember you from the XD fourms, thanks for all your advice over there. Since getting my Armscor (I have the single stack 45) my XD doesn't get as much of a workout. I still shoot it in matches now and then though. Coming from the XD you'll really like the 1911s! The Armscors are really good for the money and are competitive, at least at the level I am shooting at (newby). My friend and I started Practical shooting together and he has a Kimber, I'm not saying the Armscor = Kimber but it definately keeps pace. Its fun beating hi-dollar guns with a cheapo. Advantage over a Springer Mil-spec? My Armscor Practical came standard with beavertail grip safety, bobbed hammer, ambi-thumb safety, novak sights and mags, flared ejection port, things I probably would have added to a Mil-spec (especially the ambi because I'm a lefty). It also comes with a nicer blued finish vs parkarized IMHO. I also understand that the slides are fitted to the frame by hand (Filipino Craftmanship) and is also hand assembled. My gun basically has the same features as the gun in this thread. If you don't need all that stuff go with the RIA which is Armscors version of the mil-spec and save some money. My next purchase will be the 9mm Armscor widebody as pictured in this thread! Do some research too ...people that own an Armscor are generally satisfied and usually end up owning two or more. Here's mine!

Being a lefty with a right handed shotgun is nice. Its really easy to open the port and drop one in with the right hand (usually because of a miss and I'm short 1 to finish the stage). Thanks for everyones tips! Through trial and error (mostly error) I've decided on which is better for me...and I ended up doing both. For topping one or two off on the move I find loading with my right (off) hand to be faster because the shotgun stays more on target and easier to bring into play. If I shoot the gun dry its faster for me to flip the gun over and load with my strong hand because I have better coordination - and ALL of my focus is on filling'r up.

Only problem is that everyones par times are diffrent and everchanging. It really needs to be customized to the individual user. Some good friends of mine are computer engineers. I fooled around with idea of having them write me a code where you could enter programable Par times, etc. but I don't think the market is there to support the development of the project. If a company like EA Sports made an IPSC training aid for the Playstation I'd buy one.

Book has helped me get alot more organized with my training. I don't have a timer BUT I do have access to video editing equipment (my regular job) AND a 52" largescreen TV! I ended up creatng a still image of each setup required in the drill and set my par times in my editing timeline. Here's an example... #1 Sight alignment drill. Image of IPSC Target in its natural enviornment appears and holds for 1 minute. This allows me to practice my slow motion draw and warm up. If I feel I need more time I can pause the DVD. Image 1 fades out and Image 2 fades in for .2 over par. TV BEEPS, I do my thing and the second beep goes off (set in the movie timeline). I do this for every drill and change the backgrounds inside of the drill so I know when sets are changing. I also created TEXT/Title intros for each section explaining the drill. As I get better (hopefully sooner than later), I compress the timeline and create a new DVD. Its soooo easy to pop the DVD in the TV and just follow along! Drawbacks I'm finding with the TV method is the targets are reduced about 3/4 size of actual size and I can only get back 20 feet from my TV. Also, because the TV projects light, my sights apprear sillouetted. I still practice the old fashion way for these reasons, but technology has really helped when I want to get quick practice with little fuss. In addition...for the range I created a "Greatest Hits" mp3 library of different Par times. I download them to my iPod in the sequence I want and let it autoplay, or I can manually select the par time I want and let it repeat. Being a nerd does have some advantages.

I usually shoot my XD in ESP but I wanted to try CDP. I'm using an Armscor Practical. Added a Wilson Magwell, Falcon grips. Bought it as a cheap shooter, but its quickly becoming one of my favorite guns!

Yes...but your typing was very accurate.

Being a lefty, I find it easier to slingshot the slide with my right hand than trying to manipulate the slide stop lever with either hand. Manipulating the mag release with my trigger finger doesn't work for me, my grip has to change drastically for me to do it. I ended up buying a C&S ambi-mag release which works pretty good. It releases with a deliberate downward swipe of the thumb (rather than a push) that pulls the button, my grip changes slightly but the web of my hand stays planted.

You'll probably get a better finish outside of the US. Here in the US we have pretty stringent EPA guidelines manufactures have to follow. I think I remember reading that something in the Tenifer finish is somehow harmful to the enviornment? And its not just firearms, US auto manufactures have had to use a "softer paint" on thier cars as well. Ever notice how a Ford or Chevys finish doesn't hold up well as most imports?

I just read through this post and have a few comments... He said he has an HK93 which is 223 caliber. From your comments "kicks to much" or "HK can be used for Heman" leads me to believe you guys think its the HK91 308 caliber. The HK93 is a very light recoiling rifle (probably lighter than an AR because of its weight). I shoot an HK91 in HeMan. Sometimes I shoot it in limited and get scored as major. I know I'll never win it, but I seem to be able to finsish in the middle of the pack because so many ARs at my local level jam or prove to be unreliable. Please note I mentioned LOCAL LEVEL where your "average" guy has a tacticalized Olympic AR. The HK93 CAN be competitive with the ARs at the local level. IMHO the delayed blowback action is MUCH more reliable than the gas system of the AR. The HKs don't have a bolt hold open so just don't run the gun dry where you have to work that left-sided charging handle. HKs respond well to trigger jobs, and the sights are ok, but not great. for close range I usually look over the rear sight and aim a little low putting the target in that big front circle, it works for me. I would hold off on the optics and shoot in limited for now. Shoot both rifles n a match and see what works for you.

Problem that I'm finding is at the local level, the rules are bent. For example, my club allows 40SW major and semiauto SG for HeMan but another club the hosts Heman just 50 miles away is 44 or above only and PUMP only. So...if I get geared up to get the best advantage at my local club, I might/might not be legal to shoot in another clubs HeMan. For this reason I chose to use a PUMP, a single stack 1911 and a 308 with no optics. Might have to shoot against people with an advantage in gear...but I should be able to shoot HeMan anywhere.

Personally, I prefer a vent rib or single bead over the rifle or ghost rings. Most always shoot my shotgun with two eyes open. Its a speed (aquiring a sight picture) vs accuracy debate. Many people are accurate enough with a rib and many are fast enough with rifle sights. Some of your choice will come from personal experience. I would guess most wing hunters that shoot 3-gun would prefer a rib or bead and deer hunters would prefer sights? Borrow some shotguns and see which you prefer.

I'm really new to 3-gunning, but somebody gave me this info when I was asking about Heman. Like JM said, it depends on the local club. Some will bend the rules but it might be better to see current HeMan rules from different clubs and kind of average them together. For example, our club allows 40SW loaded to major for HeMan use, other clubs close by don't, some clubs allow semiauto shotguns for HeMan, others don't. I'd rather be compatible with several clubs in case I decide to shoot at those places as well (won't have to buy new equipment). So far, I think if you have a 308 with irons, a 12G pump shotgun, and a single-stack 45 most likely you'll be good for HeMan at most clubs. Might not be the best outfit (might have to shoot a pump vs semiauto, etc) but you'll be able to shoot. Depending on the demand/size, some clubs might have a "tactical HeMan class" that allows optics on the rifle, but I've never seen one in my area. At our club if we use optics on a rifle regardless of caliber were put in Tactical class, if its a 308 the only advantage shooting in this class is being scored major (and having a load of fun!). Present (2005) USPSA Multigun specification for Heavy Metal: Handgun: Major Power Factor, and at least .44 caliber No more than 10 rounds loaded in a magazine. (may further restrict to .45 only, single-stack, etc.) Rifle: Major Power Factor, and at least .30 caliber No more than 20 rounds loaded in a magazine (may choose to allow one optic in Tactical division) Shotgun: 12-gauge No more than 8 rounds loaded in mag-tube (8+1) (may further restrict to pump-action only) Present (2005) SMM3G specification for Heavy Metal: 6.3 Handgun – Heavy Metal Class 6.3.1 Firearms must comply with the Tactical Class handgun rules (6.2.1; 6.2.2 & 6.2.3). 6.3.2 All handguns must be .44 caliber or larger. 6.3.3 Pistol magazines in HM Class shall not be loaded with more than ten (10) rounds. 6.6 Rifle – Heavy Metal Class 6.6.1 Rifles must comply with Tactical Iron Rules (6.5.1; 6.5.2 & 6.5.4) 6.6.2 Rifles in HM Class will be .308 Winchester (7.62x51 NATO) or larger. 6.6.3 Rifle magazines in HM Class shall not be loaded with more than twenty (20) rounds. 6.9 Shotgun – Heavy Metal Class 6.9.1 Shotguns must comply with Tactical Shotgun Rules (6.8) 6.9.2 12 gauge only. 6.9.3 Semi-automatic and pump shotguns will be scored separately. Present (2005) RM3G rules containing their specification for He Man: rm3g_2005_rules.pdf ( 97.69k )

Good analogy! For me, I like to think of reloading the shotgun as wetting my fingers to turn the page before starting a new chapter.

Thanks for the link...just what I was looking for! Placed my order today. I've been lugging around 2 hardcases to matches which is a real PIA! This should work much better.

SGT...I picked up a few chokes here http://www.arizonagunrunners.com/Products/...ccessories.html

I love that feature too. Its probably one of the fastest/smoothest pumps available. You can get a nice rythmn pulling a little before your shot. Other features I liked are the 20" overbored chrome lined barrel and the heat shield. After some experimenting I found that flipping the gun over and loading stronghand works better for me. The heatshield keeps the hot barrel from touching my palm. The faux carbon finish also seems pretty durable, but time will tell. The gun is really light which can be good or bad. At our local club we shoot mainly 7 or 8 birdshot so its not a big deal. Breaking the gun down is easy and its a very simple design. Things I don't like are minor. I don't like the safety since I'm a lefty. Can't remove the barrel shroud and the sites are non-existent. I'm probaly going to try one of those stick on fiber-optic sites. I believe the pistol grip version that Sgt has comes with a rail on top and ghost rings sites. Even though it doesn't look as good, I prefer the standard stock for a shotgun.

Sorry for the late reply, just got back from vacation! I have the same, a choate extension 8 +1. They do have it on thier website at http://www.riflestock.com/catalog_page.cfm...77&NewProduct=0 On the picture I don't have it on, but with an improved cylinder choke on it, it lines up pefectly with the extension. Got mine from CDNN as well, Good company to deal with and a GREAT shotgun for that price...get one before they're out!

Point shoot moving targets, aimed fire for stationary? What if the shooter is moving and the target is stationary? There are so many different possiblities, that I'm starting to think along the lines of lkytx that the answer would be both (depending on the situation) and the better shooters (not me) know when to do what. But is aimed fire with a bead harder than point shooting with rifle sights? Which do you prefer? On one shotgun stage I saw the shotgunner hit a steel popper that activated a lever and flung a clay into the air. On this example, I can see an application of aimed fire combined with point shooting.

Yes, I've heard this before during gunshop talk. I usually reply to them that it might not be a good idea to bring a gun to a knife fight. Meaning that at typical ranges when a knife is deployed (way under 7 yards - more like 7 feet), by the time the person IDs the threat and aquires the gun, the skilled knife fighter will already have his cuts. I have demonstrated this many times to people using airsoft guns and training (marking) knives, and it has been an eye opening experience for them. The problem with many "gun" people is thier reliance on the weapon itself. From the context of FMA, the gun is simply considered a "largo mano" weapon that fits into a system of self defense. Sometimes a knife is better, sometimes a gun is better, but you should know how to use both and when to use it. I carry my firearm strongside left (I'm left handed), I carry my knife strongside right (I'm better with a knife in my right hand). I don't consider one primary and the other secondary as either one can be both depending on the situation. Guro Dan! I just saw him in Jacksonville, FL about 4 months ago. I'm sure your familiar with "Surviving Edged Weapons" that featured Guro Dan and GM Gaje? Sorry for the thread drift!