Brian Payne

I think this thread started with the question "How much would you pay for a match with no prize table?" For me, I don't get a chance to do live fire practice very much so I use our local matches for my practice. I go to these matches early to help set-up, I do what I can to assist in reset during the match, I have a good time with the fellow shooters, and I get trigger time to help me get better for Major matches. I would gladly pay up to $50.00 for a day of this as long as the stages are enjoyable and challenging. Major matches are a different case for me. I will gladly pay $300.00 entry for a Major match as long as the match is a good one and has a good prize table. By a "good" match I mean the match has great stages in a location that is enjoyable to hang out in. As an example: My favorite Major 3-gun matches are RM3G, BRM3G, Midwest 3-gun, FB3G, and Ozarks 3-gun. I have been to very few other major matches, but these are the ones I am looking at attending in 2012 and I hope to add the MGM Ironman to the list. Each of these major matches will cost me between $1000.00 and $2000.00 to attend and shoot depending on how I decide to travel. My favorite way to travel is to take my Motorhome so my wife and two dogs can make a fun vacation of it also. These matches are chosen for several reasons, #1-Match Directors, #2-Location, #3-Stages, #4-RO's, #5-fellow shooters that I know will be there, and finally #6-the prize table. I put "Prize Table" last on my order of importance only because at my skill level it is not often that I get to participate at the upper level of the prize table. But the only thing keeping me from being up there is me. I will pay the extra money for a match like this because it offers me "the opportunity" to shoot with the best shooters in the world, and to win something that might help me fund my hobby. I am not a sponsored shooter and being a lowly Chief of Police the funds for this sort of hobby are not unlimited. Any sort of help in the form of prizes is a very real asset for me. If a match does not allow me this opportunity because there is not a prize table, I have no problem with that and will hold no ill will toward anyone, but I will spend my money at a different match that allows me the chance to win something. Some comments in this thread almost appear to be condiscending toward anyone who shoots these matches with the hopes of a prize table finish, and that maybe we should just have matches with no prize tables. I am sorry, I don't feel bad about wanting to win prizes, just as I don't feel bad when someone gets a prize when I don't. It gives me something to strive for to make me become a better shooter.

Sir Kelley, I have to give you kudo's on that article. I wish I had seen that five years ago, it might have changed my thoughts on optics vs iron sights. It still might as a matter of fact. I always did love that He-Man Division.

When I first loaded mine I could feel the whole thing sticking inside. Sometimes hard to get the next few rounds in and the top rounds would rattle around. If you turned the mag upside down some of the top rounds would fall out. Numerous malfunctions. Took it apart and cleaned it, put it back together and it was fine. Loaded 60 rounds and dumped them fully auto with no problems. Seems to work great now.

The coldest 3-gun shoot I have attended was -27 degrees at the start and warmed up to about -15 by the end of the day. Heavy layers with good base layer. Hat and gloves or mittens with handwarmers inside pockets. Remove heavy outer wear for shooting, and put back on when done. Stages were kept short to protect shooters hands from frostbite from handling cold metal, and for firearm safety reasons. Burning barrels at each stage were a nice touch. We were lucky to have a windless sunny day or it could have gotten uncomfortable.

I really like that idea. See you there.

This coming from a 3-gunners perspective but it shouldn't be whole lot different. I like to give the weapons a good cleaning and then get a couple of practice sessions in to make sure all is well with the guns. I make a list (several actually), listing every item I want to make sure and have with me. When I leave for the match, nothing bothers me more than to have that nagging doubt in the back of my mind that I might have left something at home. I go for nice slow daily jogs just to keep loose, nothing overly taxing or trying to set any time limits. Break a nice sweat and stay loose. If I think the match will require shooting from unusual positions (very common in 3-gun now), I will attempt to do a lot of stretching. Check my vehicle over including tire pressure, oil, anti-freeze, windshield washer fluid, etc.. Make sure my spare is in good shape and I have the number for roadside assistance close to hand. If the match is in another state I like to leave home very early in the morning a few days prior to the match (I am not sleeping anyway), drive through the night and arrive early enough to look over the stages and maybe watch some of the RO's shoot. Bring along a notepad, binoculars, range finder, and stop watch. Try to get a general feel for how the match will go. Spend some time relaxing. I like to load all of my mags the night before the shooting begins. I have notes written down for every stage, telling me which rifle and pistol mags to use, and which shotshell carriers I will need. I will include notes on which type of shells to use for the shotgun and rifle if the stage calls for something unusual (slugs or heavier shot shells for a specific target). Basically everything I do is done to clear my mind of all distractions other than the upcoming shooting.

I may have contacted my chiggers the day prior to the match when I did the 1/2 mile low crawl and made a snail trail through the brush, weeds, and grass, just to get a peek at the set up of the blind stage. So much for that idea. Would that be considered cheating or just gaming? Seriously, I wore both shorts and pants, used deep woods off, never sat down once, and I got bites around my ankles, under my knee pads, and right around the leg opening of my Under Armour shorts.

MMA fights have "preliminary bouts" prior to the "Main Event". These prelims invovle fighters with less experience and to a certain extent, less skill. Why not do the same with the shootoffs. The preliminary shootoff would consist of eight shooters randomly drawn from a hat. These shooters would be taken from the pool of shooters that did not qualify for the main shootoff. Use the same course of fire, but only set up half of the targets for each weapon. This will keep the prelim shootoff in a shorter time constraint (we all want to go home right?) and it would also help with shooter ego. Meaning the shooters involved would not have to be looking at doing reloads and such. The prelims do not take away from the main event, and the shooters in the prelims get experience in the shootoffs but do not get a chance to work their way into a main event unless they qualify during a future match. Awards for the winner could consist of cash, ammo certificates, or equipment, donated by sponsors of the event. The winnings would be geared toward helping shooters increase their skills in future matches.

Kirk, I have to be honest! The friggin chiggers I picked up down there are bothering me a whole lot more right now than not having the scores in hand. I am coming back next year with a little knife and castrate all those little buggers!

This about sums it up for me as well. Oh yeah! Shooting with my son of course.

Too many rules. People that complain without a corresponding answer that would work better. Unreasonable penalty or bonus time on a target. Too many "hoser" stages.

These are a few of my thoughts from the match. 3GunNation Shootoff: One of the things I really appreciated about the DPMS Tri-Gun Challenge was the fact that Randy Luth always made sure to put some of the best shooters in the country on each squad. He felt that this served to help the newer shooters learn the sport. Randy realized that the new shooters were the future of our sport. With that thought in mind I would like to see the format for the shootoff changed just a little. Take the eight best shooters and keep that part of the format the same. To allow the average joe shooter to get a taste of what the shootoff would be like, "Random Draw" eight more shooters from the rest of the group of shooters and have them compete in a shootoff that has only half of the normal shootoff targets set up. We would use only half of the targets just to make the "Preliminary Shootoff" go faster. The winner of the shootoff would get a prize certificate of $250.00 - $500.00 to be used for more practice ammo, or better equipment. Just a thought. Random Draw for prizes: I don't think there is a place in our sport for random draw except if there has been a match that was stopped due to an act of God. In this case, if there was enough information available to decide who would compete in the shootoff, there was enough information to at least give the top 10% in each division the chance to walk the prize table first, then the rest of the shooters could have gone random draw ( I would have voted for this option and I was not a top 10% shooter by any means). Another option would have been to have drawn a stage number at random, and have that stages placings be the final placings. Random Draw in this situation was the worst option to have been taken in my opinion. The best option of all would to have had plans B and C on hand in case Plan A quit working. Easier said than done I am sure. Stages: Awesome. I liked the pistol steel a lot. Once my confidence in my abilities increased I had a lot more fun. I really liked the small silhouette poppers used for handgun on Stage #1 and Stage #9. My favorite stage was stage #4, and my least favorite was stage #1. The main reason for not liking stage #1 is the fact that I had run a good stage until I did my "Walrus belly flopping onto an iceberg" immitation while getting onto the boat. I knew I was in trouble when the "ripples" coming from the boat were more like whitecaps on a windy lake. The results were less than harmonious to say the least. RO's and Military: I can't say enough about this crew. All the military personel were up for a little game of "race you to the steel" during set up. The RO's looked overworked and overheated by the end of the match but I never noted a sour look or word from any of them. Coaching: Assisting a shooter avoid a "time out" is good for the shooter and good for the match and I feel coaching should be allowed in these circumstances. For the better shooters we should be playing by "Big Boy Rules" (or big girl rules). Over running targets is a risk taken when you are pushing the envelope. If, in your walk through and stage planning, you don't see a target or forget a target, you take the penalty and learn from that mistake. I am hoping we never see specific rules written to not allow coaching because it would harm the sport more than help it. Squad #5: I had the chance to shoot with some of the best shooters and best people I have ever met. I learned a lot, and feel I reciprocated by showing everyone ways of how not to run a stage. A good attitude was maintained by all. I had a blast. Andrew, Matt, Phong, good shooting with you. If you get a chance could you PM me for some information.

Motorhome wheels rolling out of Minnesota early tomorrow morning. Staying at the Missouri Trap Shooters facility just down the road from the range. Can't wait.

I hope that you don't mind that a lot of your thoughts and ideas will now be carried over to my 3-gun training and shooting. Great post, Thanks.

Give JP a call, talk guns for a while, then order a JP-15 with whatever options they recommend. That is what I did and I have no regrets.

Sono, Thanks, I just got one in a trade 30 seconds ago. I should be good to go now.

Rules for the match say "Holster must cover trigger guard" for any holster used in Tactical Class. I have a new STI Edge but the only holster I have for it is the Safariland 013 with trigger lock. Good to go? I am actively looking for a Bladetech DOH but was just curious in case I couldn't get one delivered in time.

Stages look like fun.

This was a great match. Congratulations to the winners. The unique and interesting stages really made this match a fun challenge. I was thankful to be able to be squadded with my son Tyler, James, Duke, and Doug. Some of the best shooters I have ever seen. The following are just a few of the unique sportsmanship situations that took place during the match. It never ceases to amaze me how unique 3-gun shooters are. The best of the best in my opinion. James Cassanova went out of his way to offer me words of advice during the stages even though he knew my scores were close to his, so he was basically encouraging me to beat him with his help. On the final stage Tyler was offered a reshoot because of a target malfunction, but Tyler declined even though it would have offered him a better chance to win the match. He said the broken target didn't have any affect on his shooting and it would have been wrong to do anything other than what he did. I think as a parent I was more proud of this than being able to place right behind him in the stadings. Two local shooters were awarded MGM Pepper Poppers off of the prize table, which they quickly donated to the "Minnesota 3-gun Group" to assist in the growth of the 3-gun shooting sport in the state of Minnesota. Tim Ubl was high in the standings of the Tactical Division and when it was his turn to pick a prize, he said he would hold off until all of the other shooters had taken a prize. And finally, a big thanks to all of the sponsors that stocked the prize table to overflowing. Now to go out and practice that Charcoal Briquette stage.

Sorry guys, I will try to explain it a little better. First the box lay out. Picture a big square with a shooting box in each corner. The front edge of the front two boxes would be 12 yards from the target line and 3 yrds apart. The front of the back two boxes would be at the 15 yrd line and 3 yrds apart. The center spot between the first two boxes would be centered on the stop plate. In other words, if you stood between the two boxes at the 12 yrd line and faced directly down range you would be looking straight at the stop plate 12 yrds away (if you were between the two boxes on the 15 yrd line you would be looking at the exact same thing only it would be 15 yrds away). The rest of the targets would be set 1 yrd apart, two on each side of the stop plate. The drill would start in the box of your choosing. At the beep, fire five rounds hitting the stop plate last, then move clockwise to the next box. If you started in the front left box, you would move to your right. When you get to the next box, fire five rounds from the box, then continue to the next box (moving backwards this time), then fire your five rounds, then move to the left, etc. until you are out of ammo. Start in any box you choose, just move to the next box to fire your next five rounds. Of course loading between the boxes would be the most time efficient method. Running the drill properly will give you loading on the move while moving forward, back, sideways to your strong side, and sideways to your weak side. You will practice target transitions, and first target hits from the low ready. I hope that explains it a little better. Pat, no need to worry about passing a DUI test, I normally "Beat and Release".

Any of the stands and targets used for Steel Challenge would work. I had a local welder put together some heavy duty "H" stands for sticking 1x2's into so I could staple IPSC targets up. I then had him take some five foot long steel rod bent into an "L" at the top, the lower part of the leg had a kicker welded to it that would just fit into the "1x2" slot so that I could slide the lower part into it. At the top I had had 8" plates welded to several of these hanger rods. I can put five stands down, slide the rods into the slot and I am good to go. They work great for handgun or shotgun. Jesse, I will be driving my motorhome over to the shoot later today so I will see you there. I heard we might be squadded together so I will get to learn some new tricks.

I wanted to come up with a fast easy drill that works a lot of the skills we use in shotgun for 3-gunning. Five stationary steel reactive targets set three feet apart. Targets would be hanging 8" steel like a steel challenge stage. The center target will be the stop plate for this drill. Four shooting boxes 3 yards apart centered on the stop plate, with the first boxes at the 12 yard line, the back boxes at the 15 yrd line. Shotgun loaded with 9 rounds, 16 rounds on your person. While standing in the first box (you choose) shoot the five targets with one shot each (hitting the center stop plate last), move to the next box in a clockwise rotation shooting the five targets from each new box you come to until you are empty. Add five seconds for each miss and fifteen for a failure to engage. The drill tests your speed to first shot on target, transitions between targets, reloading on the move while moving to the front, strong side, weak side, rear, and reloading speed. The drill takes one 25 round box of ammo and so far I have the time right at 21 seconds on my second try, I am loading weak hand four at a time . You will be shooting 25 shots and reloading 16 rounds any way you see fit. It would be interesting to see how the times of open shooters with sticks loaded with four rounds, or Saiga mags loaded with four rounds would compare. Also interested to see what the new 2x2 times would be.

I run an American Defense mount and have been very happy with it. I know of a lot of people whose opinions I respect, have had great luck with LaRue equipment. LaRue is also a huge sponsor for our sport, that says a lot in my opinion. I see no reason for the last comment made by strangedays. The lack of respect and childlike nature of the comment tends to draw ire.

The wife and I would take our two dogs to the RM3G for our yearly family vacation. We would drive the motorhome and stay at the campgrounds at the Whittington Center. We would spend our off time walking the back roads with the dogs, then have a couple while grilling supper. Beautiful scenery and very relaxing. One of the few vacations where I really didn't want to come home and get back to work.