TacticalReload

I played around with one at a shop last week. I thought I'd love it, but it wasn't to be. Turns out that my hand just doesn't fit well on the PPQ platform. The hump on the back of the grip wasn't "right" for me, but I could have lived with that. The real issue was the fact that my thumb knuckle hit the corner of beavertail area (in the same way that MAC on youtube complains about the Ruger American). It was noticeable just holding the gun for 2 minutes that I'm sure it would be a major problem after a few hundred rounds (or likely many less than that) in a session. If I already owned the gun, I'd probably re-contour the frame for a more comfortable grip. However, since I don't own an PPQs, I figured it was just easier to to skip it altogether. I'm not quite sure where some of these shops find their salespeople. The kid showing me the Q5 told me that I "definitely want the ported Q5 over the regular PPQ because I wouldn't want to overheat my barrel during competition". He said it with such authority and matter-of-factness that it gave me douche-chills.

The real downside with the M&P platform is that it requires a punch and hammer to disassemble it so you would need to either have a spare dry-fire-only pistol set up or you'd need to keep taking the gun apart. In the few times I did it, I started to notice that it was getting easier and easier. I would imagine that's not a good thing.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about trigger reset without having to rack the slide each time. I gave up on trying to do that... just put a folded piece of paper in the breach to shim the slide out of battery slightly. No clicking, but at least the trigger moves back and forth.

I'm 99.9% sure they are different frames.

I know this is pretty much off topic here, but I've done a little more research into the double-click thing. I've found a couple of people who claim that the striker release and the sear reset were far enough apart that it was possible to occasionally start releasing the trigger without resetting the sear, thereby causing a failure to fire / reset. I would think that the violence of the recoil would be sufficient to keep someone from failing to pull the trigger the rest of the way (fraction of an inch) to reset the sear, but I'd hate to have it happen not to. Is it easy to close the timing gap? What affect on pull / reset does it have when you do so? Do you notice that the upward pressure from a magazine on the slide (ie "separating" the striker from the trigger mechanism) makes the timing gap even worse by releasing the striker slightly earlier? I apologize if these questions are off-base... I haven't handled or examined the internals of a P320 yet so I'm just speculating on how I assume the parts work.

Glock triggers work by pushing back on the trigger bar while a small upward-pointing part that's in contact with the striker pushes back on the striker. A portion of the trigger bar that contacts the connector has a rounded section that cams the whole rear of the bar downward. When this happens, it slips off the striker, which releases it to fly forward under spring pressure. The geometry of both the bar and connector contact point and the bar and striker contact point is what controls the "crispness" of the break (or lack thereof). Polishing while not rounding off corners really won't do much to the break. With Glocks, even rounding off the parts slightly doesn't really do much with it either. What happens a lot of times when someone does a trigger job or replaces springs is that they perceive more creep in the break. The reason is because, since the pull is lighter, they can control the amount of slipping that the bar and striker do over each other before finally parting ways. Basically the coefficient of static friction is greater than the coefficient of kinetic friction... so it takes more force to get them slipping than it does to keep them slipping. So when the static friction is very great (ie, the trigger pull is heavy), you apply a sizable amount of force to get them to start to move and it's enough to get the parts to just slip all the way off each other. When the static friction is much lower (ie, the trigger pull is light), you apply a minimal amount of force to get the parts to start to slide... but it's small enough that the movement is slow enough for you can actually feel the parts sliding until they break. This makes the trigger "creep" and feel less crisp even though you didn't really do anything to reduce the amount of distance they two parts have to slide before separating. Note that this is different than doing a trigger job on a gun with a more traditional sear with a really precise sharp corner that rides in a notch in a hammer (or even a tab on a striker). In those cases, the idea would be to get the sharpest most true corner as possible on the mating surface with a minimal amount of overlap... kind of like standing with your heel on the very edge of a step of a ladder... the littlest force and down you go. Polishing a Glock's trigger parts is more like greasing the step and the bottom of your shoe while still making decent contact with the step.

I wonder how the "regular" P226 SAO trigger compares to the Legion SAO. Anyone know?

I hear that a lot about DA/SA. Seems like in this day and age of striker guns, DA guns are going the way of the dinosaurs. At the very least, no one bothers to put the time in to master their triggers any more because strikers are that much easier to get the hang of. I might have agreed with you a couple years back, but it seems the double action CZs are taking over production division. Not just locally, but at nationals as well. It seems the plastic production guns are on the decline in USPSA. I was thinking more about the gun-buying public as a whole rather than competitors specifically. It seems like a majority of people who started shooting during the modern era of plastic-fantastic has all but abandoned the idea that DA guns have any merits. Personally, I find that all the pistols in my carry rotation have hammers. Doing it with an OWB kydex holster in a controlled environment with a neatly tucked in shirt and a second and possiblly third set of eyes watching (ie, during a competition) is one thing, but holstering striker-fired guns IWB with untucked clothing or whatever always gives me the willies. I like putting my thumb over the hammer of my gun while holstering so I know if something is catching the trigger. The longer, heavier pull also makes me feel better in a self-defense situation. The most common complaint I hear about DA/SA guns is the transition from the first pull to the second. I think what those people are REALLY complaining about is the first pull, not the transition. Give them a heavy DAO trigger and they would probably be just as, if not more, unhappy. I guess spending most of my first 5 or 6 years of handgun shooting with SIGs and revolvers got me over the hump with the DA learning curve. BASE772... you have me thinking that I want to try a well-tuned CZ. For some reason, I have never been bitten by the CZ bug. (Probably because I've never fired on with a 6.25# DA pull.) In fact, the only one I've really handled for any large amount of time was a buddy's NIB SP-01 Shadow. I think the fact that the finish appeared to be applied with a rattle-can of black rustoleum kinda turned me off. Other than that, I have such a lack of knowledge about anything CZ that it's embarrassing.

Do they have a replacement safety? Or do they literally shave it? The guy said they literally milled it down equally on both sides. He was trying to get them to take it all off of the right side so it wouldn't affect how easy it was to click it on and off on the left side, but SIG told him that the only internally "approved" method was to take an equal amount off both the left and right. Apparently it's not quite as easy to deactivate now. I've been looking for a SAO for a bit now, but they seem to be fairly hard to get. If I do get a hold of one, I'll probably leave the safety as is. I'm guessing that if I did shoot it at local club IDPA matches, no one would really care even if they did notice. I don't really have the time to shoot sanctioned matches any more anyway. I don't know. Just think of the huge advantage you'll have with that wider safety. I'd like to get a SAO for playing at local Steel matches. I was faster at steel with a 320 than with a heavy CZ. I know... heaven forbid you have an easily functioning safety lever. I think SIG got into a bit of a bind because they pushed the SAO Legion as a great gun for IDPA. I don't know of a local dealer that would be likely to have something like a Legion SAO in stock, and I'm not sure I would want to order one sight unseen. I love SIGs, but I've (infrequently) seen some new ones that have blems that should have been caught before leaving the factory, IMO. A long while back, I bought a NIB P229SAS that I should have examined at the gun shop before leaving... when I got it home, I noticed that it looked like someone did the melt job by rubbing the slide with a broken rock. SIG made it good by replacing the slide, but it took over 3 months to get it back and every single time I called them to check on it, I was literally on hold for nearly an hour before being able to speak with a human being. It was unbelievably frustrating. I would hope that the process would not be like that today... I think (hope) the wait times to talk to CS, at least, are shorter. Sorry for the long story... Docsabo40's post gave me flashbacks.

Hazmat fee. I don't shoot nearly enough to order enough powder to justify the fee.

I keep wanting to try N320, but I can't ever find any that isn't way overpriced. There was a guy at a local gun show this weekend selling 1# containers for $53. At that price, I'll just keep living on the edge and using Clays instead. ;-)

I hear that a lot about DA/SA. Seems like in this day and age of striker guns, DA guns are going the way of the dinosaurs. At the very least, no one bothers to put the time in to master their triggers any more because strikers are that much easier to get the hang of. That would would be pretty damn near perfect, IMO. If I can find a P226 SAO in the meantime (assuming the P229 SAO happens), it would be hard not to buy it. If it buy it, it would be hard to justify getting both. So maybe the P226 shortage is a good thing... we'll see. When it comes to waiting for new guns to be released, I have almost zero patience. :-)

Do they have a replacement safety? Or do they literally shave it? The guy said they literally milled it down equally on both sides. He was trying to get them to take it all off of the right side so it wouldn't affect how easy it was to click it on and off on the left side, but SIG told him that the only internally "approved" method was to take an equal amount off both the left and right. Apparently it's not quite as easy to deactivate now. I've been looking for a SAO for a bit now, but they seem to be fairly hard to get. If I do get a hold of one, I'll probably leave the safety as is. I'm guessing that if I did shoot it at local club IDPA matches, no one would really care even if they did notice. I don't really have the time to shoot sanctioned matches any more anyway.

It's been posted online by some people that they have been able to get SIG to shave down both sides of the safety to make it fit the box at no charge if they complain that the primary use was for IDPA.

Are you seeing a lot of P320s at major matches?

I've heard a couple of cases of this. There is even someone on youtube who complained about it with two separate pistols. I think he said that they replaced the extractor pin or spring or something, but not the extractor itself. He also said it only took like 10 days to get the gun back.

That was a concern of mine as well... I used a re-profiled factory striker block and it rises just soon enough to not be an issue. If I pushed the loop back any, I think I would run into issues. I had a chance to check out yet another P320 today at a different shop. The trigger felt different on this one than the one from a couple days ago. It was heavier and had a weird double-click trigger break when pulled slowly, which bothered me. Plus the rear of the slide jumped up away from the frame when the striker was released. It was about as noticeable as the slide movement on my M&P. I noticed that some of the guns they had in stock had the old slide catch lever with the new takedown lever. Some had new for both. Some had old for both. None of the full-sized models had either new updated parts so that already ruled them out for purchase. I guess I'll have to keep looking around to see if I can find one that has the right configuration at the right price with a decent trigger pull.

I handled one of the "new" P320 models earlier today. I definitely like the placement of the slide catch and the reduction on the takedown lever (especially the latter). The trigger seems okay, but it's got that weird "sproing" feeling when it breaks -- not super crisp, and it definitely needs to come down a few pounds. I played around with a PPQ and a VP9 as well. Something about the profile where my thumb knuckle sits on the PPQ was uncomfortable... similar to how people complain about the squared off area on the Ruger American Pistol. The trigger is definitely smooth, but it's got a lot of takeup and it needs to be lighter. The VP9 is okay. I'm not sure about the lack of aftermarket support, and the placement of the slide lock means I would have to watch that I don't ride it with my strong thumb. Meh... I'm beginning to wonder if I'm headed back to Glocks. I hate them, but I have so much trigger time with them that it's the lazy way out at this point. Right now I feel like the P320 might be a contender, but I can't shake the feeling like SIG is using the general public to beta test this gun for the past two years. I don't want to buy version 2.0 and have version 3.0 (or even v2.1) come out right afterward. I'd be surprised if there were at least some updates to the Target model within the first 12 months after its release. I don't have the $ or patience to send it off to Bruce Gray, and based on what his website says, he's not even getting the pull weight down to the levels that are relatively easy to achieve with an M&P at home with a few stones and maybe a set of Apex springs.

Excellent... good to have options. Thanks.

I got excited, then you made me realize that it's not milled for an RMR. Will the target model ONLY come milled? (1) Not having the option to swap rear sights when you're not running a dot or (2) the option to get one milled yourself for non-Romeo optics or (3) having an option for BUIS with the dot is kind of a wet blanket for me. (I get the business motivation behind wanting people to specifically purchase your branded products. However, maybe ask Sony about the Betamax.)

New model MP? In what ways? Version 2.0 as some people are speculating. Something as a result of the MHS trials, but it's been talked about for quite a while and no one has seen anything concrete. Funny how we can find prototypes for the iPhone 17, but handgun manufacturers are pretty tight lipped. As for actually buying a new Smith & Wesson model... fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice, shame on me... for me 14 times, seriously, wtf is my problem. I find the Q5 Match intriguing but I'm not keen on losing the BUIS... another thing that seemed to happen on my last range trip is my RMR is starting to get the "fading dot" syndrome, too. I have already tried the "bend the contacts and add electrical tape" tricks. We'll see how it goes. I'm impatiently waiting to see what the P320 target model ends up looking like. I toyed around with a P320 at a gun shop recently. I know you said it is accurate, but do you find the loose fit of the slide to frame (or more correctly, the FCU to the frame) to be an issue? There was so much vertical play between the slide and the grip module that it gave me the willies -- especially with the way the M&P has been for me. I should have never quit shooting revolvers.

Thanks. Maybe I'll have a change of heart... most likely it will happen one way or the other based on what kind of wallet raping I get trying to sell the gun(s). Maybe when Shaun welds up his gun, I might jump back on board. I guess I could always give the XDm a try. I have very limited experience with any XD guns, but I occasionally find that I have trouble with grip safeties. One of the reasons I haven't taken the 2011 plunge is because I find that there are times when I get too high on the grip. This is probably less of an issue with guns where I don't ride the thumb safety and not having a beavertail as part of the grip safety, but I guess I just haven't warmed to them. Or maybe it's because I worked in a gun shop back in the day and we sold a whole lot of HS2000's before Springfield started putting their name on the guns and selling them at a higher price tag. Either way, if I spent 1/100th the amount of time actually shooting guns that I spend worrying about them, I'd be a hell of a lot better than I am! :-)

Definitely a good suggestion and has been what I've tried to do. Unfortunately, I've been less than successful. I'll try the band-aid trick and see if that helps any. Thanks for the link.

Sure... let me know. Even if it's academic, I still like to learn things. If I had any welding skills, I probably would have also tried to weld up the locking block / sear housing as well. A man's gotta know his limitations; and sadly, welding leaves mine well in the rear-view mirror. Post up your results. I don't even know where to go from here. I dumped all my Glock stuff when I transitioned to the M&P. Purchasing another Glock would feel like admitting defeat. ;-)

I think I've reached a point where I'm finally tapping out of the M&P platform. I took the gun back out to the range trying to work up the most accurate load. As evidenced by my photos and posts, I've always had a substantial amount of horizontal stringing. This was greatly reduced after installation of the Apex barrel, but it was still there. Not a big deal since we were still talking a reasonable group size. At the time, I had assumed that shot placement was due to dumb luck instead of mechanic problems. However, over time, a pattern emerged; and it really seemed that it was the slop between the slide and frame that was causing it. As I've been shooting the gun more, the barrel / slide / frame has worn together a bit... and the horizontal stringing has been getting worse. I think the reason is that when the Apex barrel was very tight, the friction between the fitting pad on the lug and the locking block kept the side-to-side play to a minimum. However, now that the lockup isn't as extreme, the gun is reverting back to allowing the upper to move more freely. Don't get me wrong... I do not blame the Apex barrel in the slightest for this. It's clearly the problem with the sloppy fit of the gun as it came from the factory. The groups probably won't open up to much bigger than they are now, and I'm reasonably sure that the Apex barrel has cured the early unlocking & vertical stringing issues completely. I tried to take video of this with the grip locked into a vice, but it's very hard to pickup so I'll just describe it instead. When I dry-fire the gun, the dot jumps to the left. Sometimes it barely moves and other times it moves a lot. I have a 6.5 MOA dot, and I would say that I've seen it jump to the left at least up to double the width of the dot when the striker releases. I tried to do some estimates at known distances and I'm seeing the dot move sideways the equivalent of around 6" at 35 yards during dry-fire from a rest. On top of all this, I've now started getting FTE at the rate of around 1:100, despite the fact that I religiously clean under the extractor. My patience has pretty much come to an end. I sent the gun back to S&W once already, and they told me there is nothing wrong with it. As for the FTE, I know I could swap out the extractor for the Apex one, but I'm tired of replacing stuff on this gun to get it to work. The fact that it is starting to spread bullets holes out sideways again is the last straw for me. I wanted so badly for this to work out, but I think I'm pretty much at my wits' end. I'm going to take a bath on the resale; and I'm not quite sure if I also will sell my M&P40 as well, which actually shoots accurately. *sigh* I know that folks are seeing that the Apex barrel are making the slide slop irrelevant, and hopefully it stays that way for you folks. Maybe my gun started off as just too far gone.