Dkrad1935

Well it went up as high as 1.30 or something like that and then came down. The phrase was "come down recently" which was meant to describe past year. Does that clarify?

I think cci primers are hard. I have a different trigger but same kind of springs and don't get light strikes. I think try some other ammo with different primers would work. A heavier spring would work and those are cheap solutions. Extended striker would improve as well. But it would cost extra.

What is corporate cronyism ?

Some do take profit. I see people paying 35-45 dollars for glock magazines. 30 seconds of internet searching can find places selling them for 25. I think some people pay whatever a retailer asks and never know what the market actually says something is worth. Fortunately the internet can show you what the market will bear. There are companies that are very reputable in terms of how they advocate for the consumer. I work for one and that's why I get a little defensive on this topic. I can see cost and retail for 12 years and the margin hasn't gotten fat. At least not where I work. Don't know about others. And ammo has been in short supply since Obama began looking like he would get elected.

True dat

And I am definitely not saying commodity prices are the only contributor to current ammo prices. But demand alone does not set ammo prices. At least demand for ammo alone. Demand for those commodities drives a base price for ammo. Beyond that demand of ammo, and corporate finance objectives and etc etc drive prices.

I posted this earlier in the thread, but it might have been hard to spot below that big CTD image... This is spot lead over the last three year. To me it looks like lead is down about 20% over that time and about flat for the last two years. Clearly the price of lead is not the source of price increases. Here's the 5y spot. There was a sharp increase in -09, but lead price has been pretty flat since August of -09. Here's the spot price of copper, which would be the other major component of most bullets and brass. It did increase more than lead bacj in -09 and 10, but even copper has been pretty much flat for the last four years (discounting the peak in -11, which lead had as well) Look at lead prices in 2004. I was referencing 10 years. I also mentioned prices were down recently. So we are looking at the same charts. I looked at some stock info. Really the first one I found was Olin. It looks like they made about 55 million in profit on around 600 million in sales. That translates to about 8% profit rate. That's not bad but it's not great either. I didn't have time to track down more info. My only point is most manufacturers aren't hoarding huge profits. They provide a decent return to investors. Their is an underlying cost to build ammo. Those underlyings are up significantly over a decade ago. It would be interesting to baseline peoples understanding of price increases. Over what time frame? What was a box of 9mm ammo from 2004, 2010 and today. To hear some describe it, ammo used to be free and now it isn't.

The different classes are a bit of an illusion. Mediocre shooters are mediocre. Haha. You can't hide! My son was on swim team for a while. And I loved swim meets cause you would have in some events 12 year olds out swimming 18 year olds. Everyone knew where they ranked speed wise. Most races were age group but a 50 second 50 was still a 50 second 50. Shooting is the same. Everyone knows your skill level as soon as they see you shoot. Regardless of your classification. Now I know several shooters who should watch themselves on video cause they think they are super ninjas, and love to teach everyone in the squad. Haha I am not a super ninja, still a padawan learner:)

If you don't think lead prices are up just look at bloomberg or any other commodity tracker. If you don't think increased lead prices drives prices up I don't really think u will ever find an answer. Is 44 cheaper than 9mm? Not that I have seen. 44 has gone up.

Sorry for all the posts but this topic fascinates me. I had a job a few years back as a sourcing manager for a large company's men's apparel portfolio. We were negotiating costs for leather wallets and I learned the most fascinating things. Leather costs were through the roof. The reason surprised me. Leather comes from cows. Most of the hide gets appropriated for leather interiors of cars. That has been a huge change over the past 6-12 years and has driven up the costs for the remaining hide. No one raises cattle for leather that I am aware of. At the same time beef consumption was down or flat and all if that combined to create high prices for small leather goods. Other examples like that popped up but always understand the supply chain and components of a product to understand costs and cost volatility. For ammo - where does brass and lead come from. Where is it mined and refined and turned into bullets and casings etc. what does the labor of each of those places look like. Is the labor getting cheaper or more expensive? What else competes for the raw materials. Is China consuming the raw materials? Etc etc. anyway it gets infinitely complicated and I guarantee you the major ammo companies have a team dedicated to sourcing raw materials and they understand all of those things and the markets for each. They know how to forecast what will happen to their costs over time and what that means for the prices they charge. They get pretty sophisticated at this. Anyway. I promise not to post anything else on this topic. For at least the rest of the night!

The other thread on this topic just got locked down as I was writing a really long reply. Ah well. People who don't understand economics seem to always want to declare a conspiracy of corporations or government.

In 2004 lead was about 20 cents per pound. It has come down recently to 1 dollar a pound. Lead is a commodity and commodities are typically sound markets in terms of how you would normally think of supply and demand. Although there is some environmental compliance interference even internationally. Lead would have to be (totally guessing) 50-60 % of the price if bullets? So as the main component goes so does the price. Brass would be the other big component. And I couldn't find a chart of prices, all metals are up over the last few years. So - I think it's a bit naive to say companies just charge more because people are buying more. It's true in some cases to an extent but I don't think it is what's going on with ammo

So true, it's all supply and demand. The market is not good or bad but it does not lie. Demand is through the roof and folks are paying the prices. For the OP, give the Bayou or BBls a try. Everyone that tries them loves em. I get 3000 Bayou 147s delivered for $242. There has been an underlying increase in their component costs. If their profits grew as you suggest, others would come in to participate. I have friends who are trying to start an ammo business. Don't kid yourself and think this is a very high margin business. Although high margin is relative - the margins aren't really growing.

Yeah. I'm with you Steve. Every time I do the math I can almost pay for a 1050 from 9 alone (assuming 10k rounds). If you look at 45 the dollars add up even faster. I haven't bought a press yet but if you shoot more than 4-5k rounds a year I think you should ignore the costs of a press. Just buy the one that matches your round count and you should pay it off in year 1

Yeah but no one expected it to last this long. Hind sight is 20/20 as they say. Also prices would have stayed lower had production kept pace.

5 tractor trailer loads is nothing in terms of quantity. I work at a large retailer and I can tell you since Obama took office demand (aka sales) has been growing incredibly fast. Suppliers just can't keep up and are unwilling to invest a lot of Capitol. They add labor and run lines 24/7 but there is a limit. To change the availability you have to invest capital. But it is much more profitable to run your lines at max capacity. I think they fear that if they drop 50 million or whatever to build more buildings and then demand drops off they get left holding the bag. As it is. They are probably growing profits rather nicely.

Zz

That's the only reason it was even a case. He was in it for the contingency, not "justice" for the girl.

Haha. Just calling it like I see it. Obviously it was a sweeping generalization. But our society is way to litigious (is that a word). The lawyer should have spanked this brat girl and told her to go live with the consequences of her choices.

Who the hell is paying the lawyer? Lawyers are literally the root of all things wrong in this country. The lawyer that took this case should be...... Well. I'll stop there:)

What? Ruined Star Trek? Whatchu talkin about willis

To learn to run with a gun, you should practice with scissors!

I wouldn't want a pistol of any caliber in a SHTF scenario. Haha. 12 Guage is a beast. Just sayin.

And where would I have to travel to shoot a bullseye match?

Just shot my second classifier (IDPA) and just missed EX by two head shots!