drewbeck

Thanks for the info on the amount of time it took you, just remember you haven't achieved any level of accuracy until that barrel is fit. Not the least bit worried you'll have issue but that is more important than the slide

Being able to consistently do what you just did is beyond the skill set & tooling capabilities of many accomplished gunsmiths. I'd say it's a waste of time to try to make that frame fit something else any better, finish that gun and you'll uncover more knowledge as you fit each piece into the system. if you want to purely try making one "perfect" just to see if you can ( which I totally understand the thought process) I would start with an 80% frame and cut it yourself so you don't have to fix an issue to begin with. out of curiosity, how long did it take to measure, cut, and fit this slide? And more importantly how long would it take to do them now that you've done it? I think this answer will explain why it isn't done for today's typical custom gun price point

I was speaking purely about the quality of fit of the barrel, slide and on down the list. i guess I didn't know new ones were no mim guns. I also don't thing MIM parts are inherently bad as long as they are quality cast and used in the right application. Any part can break.

It's likely to be better quite honestly. Does it have the adjustable eliason (gold cup) style rear sight? That's the only thing I've had issues with, the pin can walk out during recoil. It hurts worse than you'd think when it hits you in the forehead. if it has this sight, get it staked so it doesn't walk and life will be good. I paid something like $619 for my pm7 new in 2002/3 and it's probably the best gun deal I've ever had.

Agreed with all the above. And it should be about as comfortable as doing squats. You shouldn't experience shooting pain but if it's comfortable your not getting much out of it. not sure if your married but I also found that my ring was a hindrance because I couldn't squeeze as hard due to it crushing my finger of my strong hand.

Uhhh I don't know about you, but I'd call the fundamental aspect of gripping a gun technique. I was more referring to technique as it relates to the nuances of whether a finger in front of the trigge guard is better or worse, thumbs forward or flying in the wind, etc. To me, the fundamentals of grip are get your hands as high as possible, get as much meat on the gun as possible, and squeeze it as hard as possible without disrupting the sights. After that a person has to figure out to make it comfortable and consistent

Figure out the cause of your FTE. If it happened once it will happen again unless you know what the circumstances are that caused it and fix or avoid them when it matters. not saying it's necessarily a gun issue, it could be brass, temperature, oil, grease, dirt, pixie dust, black magic, voodoo, whatever... the point is, it's a machine and you can make any machine fail if you know the right environment to put it in and you want it to. Once you know it takes to make this gun fail, either fix it or make sure you don't put it in those circumstances unplanned and when it matters

The best way I've been able to explain it or convey it to others was as simple as this. Your strong hand is the trigger puller, your weak hand is the vise. Close the vise as tight as you possibly can without disrupting the trigger puller. If the sights move after the explosion, build a better vise. If the sights move before the explosion, fix the trigger puller. If you can't SEE the fire ball coming out of your hands to begin with, worrying about how you're holding it is pointless. I think this is an impossibly question to try to answer because the question can only be answered by each person through self discovery. Here's my own example. I now shoot an open 2011 based gun. If I had my choice I'd shoot a glock frame/shape gun. Ergonomically my grip and hands fit better on a glock and I can control recoil far better than I can on the shape of the 2011. To break the glock frame and grip down further, I can control a compact G19 way better than I can a full size G17. And I can manage recoil on the pocket G43 better than the subcompact G26. On the G19, my index finger is front of the trigger guard and on the G43 my thumb is 1/4" from the muzzle and my index is in front of the trigger guard, wrapped around the frame and is in front of the ejection port riding the slide. So in this example did my "grip" really change? Does having my finger in front of the TG on the 19 make it better? Should I modify my grip on each gun so I'm holding it in a consistent way even when the ergonomics of the gun are different? I think people get too hung up in the "technique" and should be more worried about the fundamental aspect of doing whatever it takes to get the best possible grip you can on the specific gun you're holding in your hands at the time.

No disagreement that the lever is playing role and against our favor in recoil management. Regardless, it can still be overcome with enough opposite force. Most people including myself aren't yet capable of doing that however, it doesn't mean you should let the gun drive you vs you driving the gun Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't taken a class with Ron but have shot quite a few matches with him and I'd agree with Jake that "let recoil happen" is being taken out of context or misunderstood with regards to grip. If I had to guess, I'd say he was speaking more to getting mentally past the "explosion" (recoil) happening in your hands so you can begin to SEE what is happening vs anticipating or trying to control the recoil somehow. The bottom line is recoil, and muzzle rise/flip are two entirely different things that happen simultaneously when the gun fires. You must have recoil (cycling the gun) to shoot again. You do not have to have any muzzle flip in order to shoot again. Think about this, Newton's 3rd law (still undisputed I believe) says for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. In gun design, this means the force pushing the bullet out of the barrel is going to have an opposite reaction straight back, this by the way is what browning understood and first put to use in the semi auto to cycle the action and is the basis of design for all modern inertia semi autos. So here's the question... where is the energy coming from that "makes" the gun flip? If you shoot uphill does the gun flip down? Get your mind past past the thought that recoil and flip are related and you'll really be able to "let recoil happen"

I can assure you Charlie revolves his schedule around making sure he is available and first in line for signing up for matches that he wants to attend. He is also typically one of the first at the range and last to leave and walks the talk and leads by example of how most people say the sport/match should go. His question isn't about him wanting better or some unequal treatment because he's a GM, it's really the question of whether we need to take a look at the process and make sure their isn't a way to improve it. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ya but that dude doesn't want to go to an area match and get beat by A or B class shooter at a big match Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No disagreement that, the majority group (us) play the largest role in the matches success. However, we do nothing with regards to whether the match was successful in determining an Area Champion. To do that, the best have to compete and to compete they at least should be given priority in being able to sign up. The risk of the majority not being able to shoot is not an issue, there simply aren't that many top shooters. It's not a matter of being in awe or bowing down to the best, it's a matter of respecting the "competition" aspect of the sport. We get the opportunity to coexist and play on the same stage as the best in the sport. Without a priority given to competing, we are just diluting the game in my option at this level of event Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In your mind the process works fine because you are happy being a cheerleader at the match. maybe you should take the blinders off and realize there is a competition going on behind you and you and I are there to provide entertainment while the winners are reloading their mags

Sounds like a response from someone that doesn't want to let their shooting determine whether they get to play or not Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sarge how is it snobbish for one of the the first tier shooters is the country to say, he wants to compete against the best when it's considered an Area championship? Saying to make entry fees 10k so I can buy a championship would be snobbish. The truth is the best shooters don't care about winning an area match with an asterisk. Without competition, it's a local match with more stages and higher cost Being ok with mediocrity is what separates us from the champions. Don't make it about us..... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Another possible solution is doing it similar to how the Boston marathon handles the issue of supply and demand. Basically they do a tiered registration window depending on skill. So for shooting it would look something like Day 1 GM's can register, day 2 M's can start to register, day 3 A's can start to register, and so on. Once it's full that's where the line is drawn. It would still be first come first served but give a priority to skill level. The MD could give priority to residents or not depending. If the big demand matches usually fill up on the "B class" registration day and your a C class shooter, your either screwed or you make it a goal to get better so you can compete in that match. The system works for the 25k people that want to run Boston and they use the pace the person runs at other marathons in the year to establish the classification system for them. Since we already have one it's even simpler solution to implement. An "Area Championship" should prioritize skill level in that area. If you want to be a part of the match but know you won't make the cutoff, volunteering is the easiest way. That again would prioritize who really wants to be there vs just wants to shoot the match. This is a competitive sport, it's certainly social as well but when people start wanting it to be a socialized competition it becomes a "local match" in my opinion Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It takes more than a little while to wear out a rotation of three blasters.... i still think you you should keep the parts and cobble together a dedicated dry fire gun. I'm pretty sure a 4th matching 2011 dedicated dry fire gun = boss status hehe

How many guns have you had that "served their purpose"? Hehe you seem to break em way before they ever wear out. Seriously though have any of your 2011 worn out before something had catastrophic failure? It seems like most times something major just fails in lieu of actually wearing out, this further confirms that tightness is kind of moot Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the information. I knew they were the ways, I was just totally drawing a blank for the terminology when writing the post. This is super helpful and appreciated. OP - Sorry if this turned into a hijack, hopefully you'll find the info useful in your build.

Thanks for the info above, much appreciated. Also, just to clarify my question. I'm talking about the groove in the slide ( that mates with the frame rails) this groove gets deeper by .002 on each side starting at the ejection port to the guide tunnel. I'm guessing this is cut with a keyseat cutter and I don't know why it would be consistent on both sides if they cut them both in the same setup unless, A) They did it on pupose, or B - they over clamped and squeezed the slide together while cutting and it rebounded back to normal slide width after milling. Seems like the latter is probably more realistic now that I'm thinking about it.

On 2011 slide riding on the bottom, do you clearance cut with the frame in front of the rails or the slide in front of the slide stop (about) for additional clearance during recoil? Also curious if you know if caspian tapers the slide rails width so they get wider starting at about the front of the ejection port? My current slide width grows (.005) in a consistent taper on the inside but the outside remains the same width. Ive heard this is done on purpose for added clearance as the slide recoils, which to me makes logical sense but I don't know if that's true. I didn't spend the time to confirm that the taper is consistent or equal on both sides but it appears to be. This resulted a slide that is tight at lockup but when all the way back it has .005 ish slop in it. curious on your thoughts, thanks

Based on that response, I would say your ability to measure and get a handle on how the parts are going to interact is far better than 95% of the custom gunsmiths. I believe there are only a small handful of 1911 platform builders that spend the time or take it to that level of accuracy or precision in measuring or fitting. There are also very few that use a surface grinder due to the time it takes and cost for fixtures and wheels. What this really boils down to is that gunsmiths cater to the market, and there isn’t a big enough demand or realized gain in performance to spend that much effort and not get a return in that investment. Have you measured your slide and frame? If not, I think you’ll be fairly surprised at what that uncovers for you. Beneath that sandblast you’ll probably find some awesome tool marks and variation that will make a tool maker laugh. From your perspective and level of precision, most custom gunsmiths are rough carpenters and artists. They know how and where to fudge and push the tolerances that come from different parts and different manufacturers. SVI is probably the only one that is truly responsible and accountable for how the frame and slide are produced. Everyone else just figures out how to make the parts work together. So now with a better understanding of how you’re going to attack this thing. I’d say if you’re going to true up the frame rails, deck and slide and know for sure that everything is parallel and true, you’d be better served making it tighter than looser. I think <.001 vertical and .002 total width will feel tight but give you plenty of clearance and allow the gun to run as you’d like. Also measure the breech face and sides and true this area up. Most of the time the sides aren’t true and this equates to most GS cutting the hood narrower than what would be ideal so that it has clearance as the hood moves up and down during lockup so it doesn’t bind or wedge in the narrowest area of the slide. FYI to all, I’m not trying to downplay the skills of the custom gunsmith in the above. All I’m trying to do is put perspective on the level of accuracy we’re talking about. It’s no different than hiring a cabinet maker to frame your house. He’d have more skill and ability than is needed to frame a house to the required level of tolerance for a quality product. But you better hope you’re not paying him by the hour to work at the same level of precision needed in cabinets as he’d lose his mind trying to true and straighten every stud and joist and it would cost a fortune without any real benefit.

Not trying to argue with anyone above but how "tight" is tight to you? What exactly does "tight" mean dimensionally? Unless you have rail, can, or groove micrometers and have the ability to actually measure an exact tolerance dimension that results in the feeling of "tight" you really have no way of knowing what "tight" means. My point is that not very many people have the tools and ability to measure the feeling of “tight” and put an actual dimension to it. Also, without an accurate measurement of all the interacting dimensions, something may feel tighter or looser than it is. If the slide or frame is not exactly parallel, the gun will feel tigher or looser than it actually is. An easy way to see this is to pull your slide off a 2011 and look at the areas that are wearing on the underside of the slide rails. Is the wear/polished area EXACTLY the same on both sides? In most guns this will be slightly different. If it’s wearing slightly different it’s because the bearing points are slightly different which means something is slightly out of parallel. The gun may feel really tight and smooth but in reality there could be .002 width variation/tolerance in the actual dimension and the person can simply not feel or perceive this difference. The feeling of “tight” is very subjective… accuracy in measuring and understanding of the measurements that typically correspond to the feeling of “tight” is not.

I reread what I wrote and I want to make sure what is said wasn't misinterpreted. On the side to side cleaance, I was referring to, and assuming you were referring to Total Clearance and not clearance PER Side. My reference to .010 would be total for both rails, ie .005 per side if the slide was centered. I just wanted to make sure I didn't lead you down a path toward AK47 tolerances! Have fun