Singlestack

Ok, fine I just issued you a Match DQ for handling a box of ammo in the safe area (not saying I would, but stuff happens). What rule are you going to use to file your ARB? You can't write "well, it was taught in my RO class that one step away meant I was ok". 2.4.2 says "any circumstance". Where does the rules say your hands "need to be on the rounds themselfs"? You are making stuff up. I guess my biggest point here is, I don't like it when someone says "that's how it is taught so that's the rule". We have a rule book for rules. I agree that picking up a box of ammo to reach something under it should be ok, I just can't see that in the rules. I think you are missing the point... it's not that the "one step to the gun" is the *rule*, it's that it was provided as a way to assess or use the rule, just like the overlay. Second the rule you would use in ARB is 2.4.2/10.5.12 which directly quotes and pretty much defines "handling" - and specifically storage devices. And where in there does it say ammo in boxes is ok?

Ok, fine I just issued you a Match DQ for handling a box of ammo in the safe area (not saying I would, but stuff happens). What rule are you going to use to file your ARB? You can't write "well, it was taught in my RO class that one step away meant I was ok". 2.4.2 says "any circumstance". Where does the rules say your hands "need to be on the rounds themselfs"? You are making stuff up. I guess my biggest point here is, I don't like it when someone says "that's how it is taught so that's the rule". We have a rule book for rules. I agree that picking up a box of ammo to reach something under it should be ok, I just can't see that in the rules.

But what if a real big dude is walking by and the mag hits the big dude in the head! All full of bullets and stuff! I'd say "fine" might be a temporary thing. Probably an over simplification, but in my RO class, it was said.... if it's *one step to the gun*, you are in trouble with ammo in the safe area, more than one step, you are fine... e.g. box of ammo, closed, not liked, but not DQ'able, open, one step from the gun. Live rounds in the mag, mag not in any carrying device, one step from the gun; live rounds in a mag in a belt holder/mag holder - more than one step to the gun and ok... Sure there are special cases (isn't there to anything)... The problem is, no matter what is taught, there is no rule that supports "*one step to the gun*". An ARB committee has to go by the rules. In NROI's answer to the FS question, he talks about handling mags and speed loading devices. Nothing about ammo boxes. The question was about handling mags, not ammo boxes so it does not even apply. IMO, "any circumstances" covers ammo boxes pretty well.

But what if a real big dude is walking by and the mag hits the big dude in the head! All full of bullets and stuff! I'd say "fine" might be a temporary thing.

As long as your mag does not fly out! I sure hope so. I spent a lot of money on my SVI mags.

Sorry. I thought you were the one who wrote, "I also choke on any circumstances in 2.4.2. Hard to get around." Must have been someone else... I did. How is that contrary to NROIs' position? I never said anything about bags or belts. *edited to add* Or speed loading devices.

Huh? Perhaps you need to reread my position. I said nothing at all contrary to this. I might suggest you need some remedial reading 101.

You're not handling ammo, loaded mags or loaded speed loaders, you're handling a box (or a bag) with ammo in it. I agree. I also choke on any circumstances in 2.4.2. Hard to get around. To me "under any circumstances" simply means "at all." I'm basing some of my opinion on the "2 step" thing that has been talked about as being the "rule." I know it's not published in any capacity other than an opinion that I seem to remember reading but you can handle ammo or mags as long as they are IN something (other than a magazine, of course ). You can bag your gun at the safe area then peel your belt off with loaded mags on it. IMO this is no different than having one of those magazine sleeves with loaded mags in them or a box of ammo Me too.

You're not handling ammo, loaded mags or loaded speed loaders, you're handling a box (or a bag) with ammo in it. I agree. I also choke on any circumstances in 2.4.2. Hard to get around.

Once the WSB specifies the hands any way other than hanging naturally at sides, the shooter is free to do whatever he wants (except touch the gun) with the hand(s) not covered by the WSB. Not grey at all. 8.2.2 Sorry, I disagree. It is extremely gray. 8.2.2: This is open to a wide range of interpretation. What's clear is that if the WSB has no start position specified at all, it is by default "standing erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides". What's not clear is if the WSB partially specifies a start position, e.g. it just says "toes touching X's", if those defaults still apply. If they do apply, then a WSB which says "toes touching X's" implies a hand position of "naturally at sides". If they don't apply, it would mean I could start with my hand hovering an inch from my holstered gun. It doesn't say either way (which is my point), but that seems to me a very strange interpretation of the rule, and inconsistent with how every RO I've ever met interprets and applies that rule. I'll agree with you about a partially defined start position. It does muck things up a bit and I believe that if you define a start position in the WSB, you had better finish the job. IMO, the phrase "Unless otherwise specified" clears all defaults once the WSB starts defining the start position.

Here is how I started. I bought a Rem 700 SPS Tactical .308. Did a little home polishing on the action and trigger and put a decent stock on it. I got a take off from a friend that put a .700 PSS in a McMillan. Then I bought the best glass I could afford and I didn't spend enough money. I bought a Leupold 3.5-10 X 40 and while the glass is nice, the reticle leaves a lot to be desired. Spend once cry once but that's a whole 'nother topic. The .308 is easy to load for and is very capable @ 1K. It will be a bit cheaper than most as well. Then there is also the advantage of being able to buy factory ammo. My rifle has a 20in barrel and I use it for hunting and target shooting. I would highly recommend a 24in barrel if you ain't going to be carrying it around much. It is easier to get the velocity you will need at 1K out of the longer barrel. I would buy a Rem .700 XCR Tactical Long Range in a minute. Put a nice Night Force 5.5-22 X 50 with a NP-R1 reticle and go have fun.

Even spiders?!?

Once the WSB specifies the hands any way other than hanging naturally at sides, the shooter is free to do whatever he wants (except touch the gun) with the hand(s) not covered by the WSB. Not grey at all. 8.2.2

This Hate rant has turned into a discussion, which is beyond the bounds of the rules for the Hate Forum. Thus, it must be closed. Please review the Hate Forum Rules: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=8097 [note: this is a generic response]

Some Forums do not add to your post count when you post in them. Humor, Classifieds, Beginners off the top of my head.

You say: I hear tension. Pushing. Desire. Double tapping. Switching hands might help for a minute by causing you to change your focus. For a minute.

2.4.2 Dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines, loaded speed loading devices and live rounds must not be handled in a Safety Area under any circumstances (see Rule 10.5.12). Plural. As in more than one and "any circumstances" could mean ammo in a box. 10.5.12 Handling live or dummy ammunition (including practice or training rounds, snap caps and empty cases), loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices in a Safety Area, or failing to comply with Rule 2.4.1. The word “handling” does not preclude competitors from entering a Safety Area with ammunition in magazines or speed loading devices on their belt, in their pockets or in their range bag, provided the competitor does not physically remove the loaded magazines or loaded speed loading devices from their retaining or storage device while within the Safety Area. Plural. As in more than one. (I'm bored BTW )

Just because it is what is being taught, does not make it a rule. The bar exam is all about what is in the book. I'm not saying I disagree with you, I'm saying that ain't a rule.

Care to back that up with a rule Nik?

If this was so easy you would be doing it now. Good point. It would also open a huge can of worms. Here's the other contrary point -- and why this won't work: Currently if someone faults a line with a toe touch you can assess them a single procedural, and assess the competitor who runs 40 yards downrange one per shot...... I'm not in favor of changing the rule -- I'm in favor of improving the officiating..... That said, if we deemed it necessary to amend it, I'd favor a per shot fired stipulation for those matches that use embedded, rather than dedicated ROs..... That was the "huge can of worms" I was refering too. I'm back on the per shot no matter what.

If this was so easy you would be doing it now. Good point. It would also open a huge can of worms.

I lost interest when it wasn't beer.

Exactly what I'm doing..... How do I fix it? I was struggling with this a few years ago, to the point I was breaking thumb safeties off (3). I had to direct my attention elsewhere to correct the problem. Usually, other symptoms are trigger freeze and the FS not returning correctly, unexplained low left hits and misses. I quit thinking about grip entirely. The negative thought process, I will not grip so hard, didn't work for me at all. Positive thoughts work much better. I focused my attention on the FS and let it control everything and that problem went away. Pushing, or trying to shoot faster than you can comfortably can causes this problem too. If you walked up to me right after shooting a stage and asked me how hard my grip was, I would not be able to answer you. I have no idea. Hard enough... Your body will adjust if you let it.

You have to work real hard at getting your brass back for belling to matter. Bell it enough so your bullet sits easily and stays put when you index and shoot it until it splits. You will lose way more than you ever split.

Realistically, this won't work. Asking the RM to find all the possible problem areas, and write them into the WSB just is not going to happen. Your probably right. It's too easy and makes too much sense. I mean really, how hard is to spot areas where someone would have to lean to take a target and then write a line in the wsb like "Faulting the line while engaging T4 and T5 will incur per shot penalties." And whats so bad if they choose not to write it up?