Alan Adamson

Hope no-one cares, that I'm carrying on a conversation to myself... Figured I'd just share as I went along. I decided to do some science today... Pulled the little white primer station tension block and watched as best as I could the primer seating process... I tried not to do anything to the brass, just let it center up as it wanted to. I've now determined the WIN brass was an excellent test as it's probably the *WORST* brass to try to do this with. The reason, that nice chamfered edge on the primer pocket, it's showing the alignment issue much better than I could have expected. So as I was watching I crushed a couple of primers. At the exact point that it started to crush, I stopped the press, marked the brass so I could determine the exact orientation, released tension, heard a little snap, and then I press it on it, it did just what I wanted, releasing the tension, caused the primer to seat, but a distinct mark to be left on the primer where the punch was off center. I did that a couple of times just to see if it was consistent and it was. Ok, one thing I noticed, it took much longer to get a crushed one, so I decided to set the white block back in with a brass that I had seated correctly and just allow it to touch and then off a couple of .001. Then I cycled the press just to see how long it would take to crush one... about 15 primers so I pulled that off again for my next assessment. I took a set of numbered drills and I sanded the bottom of each flush and square, then I pulled the existing primer punch and I cleaned it all up. I took the drills up to .157 diameter and I placed each in the same hole that the primer punch would go in. The .157 wouldn't fit through the primer bar. So if indeed the Dillon punch is suppose to be .155, this is going to be interesting... Now wondering if my primer bar is part of the problem... but we'll know tomorrow on that and we'll know if the punch is really .155. Anyway, the .153 drill would slide through everything and allow me to lift a primer off the primer bar. It actually looked really good, much better at .153 with the drill than what the .149 punch looks like. Primer looked well supported etc. So I grabbed a primer and I just set it on the drill in not in the press and looked at it... Man, this is what it needs to look like. The roll on the primer was inside the flat of the .153 drill circle, and it looked like it should work just great.... Then I did the same thing with the primer punch... Wow, guess what... Something isn't right there. I could see daylight between the primer and the primer punch in areas, and the .149 and it's rolled edges didn't support the primer well at all. In fact, my primer punch *isn't level* at all. I would encourage anyone having this problem to make this last check/test, you'll either scratch your head and say whats the big deal or you'll go hmm... that isn't right... I'm sure there is no way I could get a picture of what I'm talking about, but I'm a little more hopeful that this primer punch is going to go along way to solving some of my problem. Might be time to talk to uniquetek.com about making a *hardened* primer punch for 1050's that is slightly longer to solve that cam over movement of it, and the largest diameter that would fit the primer bar. The primer punch bushing isn't the limiting factor. Also if this *new* punch were hardened, polished and machined to exact tolerances such that it was perfectly flat, I think it would be worth the price... Alan

I thought the Hunter/Gatherer things was a men/women thing.... Women like to shop, guys just like to amass lots o stuff ... Alan

Ok, so we are going to try a new Primer punch... we'll see what that brings... I'm seriously tempted to pull this one, grind it down a few .001's and then put it back in and adjust the seat depth to counteract the shortening... Just curious if a perfect .149 flat will make any difference... I noted one other thing that may influence this in some presses.... If you watch the primer punch, you'll see that it will move towards the back of the press at it's full stroke. This is because the rocker arm that lifts it *cams over* as it presses the punch up. I wonder if a slightly longer punch would help this... you'd obviously need to adjust the seating depth. What this is really begging for is a roller ball somewhere in the mechanism that allow the primer punch to float on the top of a piston that rides on the rocker arm, the spring would just retract the punch and it's flange that is setting on the top of a roller ball, that is either setting on the rocker arm or on top of a piston that is setting on the rocker arm. (assuming you had the depth here) I would think a little engineering here could solve 90% of the issues with alignment and movement where none is wanted/needed. I also think I'll attempt to polish the end of my worn primer punch, it may work better to allow the primer to float on the top of it before it's pressed into the primer pocket. Question now will become... what is acceptable primer loss due to press malfunction, *assuming* all of this effort comes to some improvement.... hmm... Alan

No those stars are nothing more than an hardness indicator. I'll see what I have and bring the tonight. Alan

Or do like those of us with SX3's... buy it and SGC was selling (part number listed here somewhere) the 24 VR barrel from an SLP, it bolts right on and works great... that's what I did.... I had 00bullit mill me in a 10-22 rear sight and that was all... Course there were some other things done, but really you don't need them if you don't want. For example, you can get the lifter welded up, you can open the load port, put on a charging handle, add a better bolt release, etc. I also had mine sure-cycled and all polished and tuned up. At the time, Tod did all the work and to date it's been awesome. Alan

Pictures for your pleasure First up - Crushed primers Next Remember that issue with the primer bar going too far in, then having to be pulled out by the pins in the head... Well I tried an experiment...it was going in too far by .034, so I made a folded paper shim that I attached with double sided clear tape. Worked great, but didn't fix anything Here is the shim in action, stopping the primer bar arm from pushing the primer bar too far in Last one - if you look really hard ( click the picture to get a larger version), you can see that the primer punch has a slightly rolled edge - on some sides, not all the way around, just under the primer, also it's hard to see in this picture, but it's ever so slightly out of alignment, the primer sets off center of the primer punch... Again, this might be the rolled edges on some sides that aren't uniform around the primer punch and a somewhat optical illusion. None the less and new primer punch is on it's way to me and I should have by mid week if all goes well. As a final point of reference... Gary says that the primer punch should be .155 +/- .001, mine and one other that I now of is perfectly round, but .149 (the other being .148)..... so perhaps they had a bad run of punches... who knows. My press is just about a year old right now. Hope these help someone Alan

Manny, the screws you need are the ones that fit the frame... I'm fairly sure that Derek used 5-40's on those... I had to get some longer ones as well on my DAA... I probably have some, I'll see if I can't remember to bring you some, you'll need to fit them. (sand then short so that they go through the dust cover, but just flush to the inside. Also, you'll have to use 1 or 2 short ones as the DAA only needs 3 I think and the 2 that set under where the slide is for the thumbrest you use the regular screws for the mount, not the long ones... I can't remember as I don't shoot a thumb rest any more... found It was causing me to *drive* the gun too much with my weak hand. Alan

Yeah, Gary to the rescue.... Well at least we'll hope... Gonna try a few things and we made a couple of small changes... I'm also going to see if I can rig a camera and take of few shots of the shellplate, to primer punch, to primer bar, etc when the handle is down all the way and everything is locked in with the shell plate pins. More later after I deal with real world stuff ... Alan

Yeah, some help ... I dopped you a PM, if possible would like to speak via phone if appropriate (assuming your handle suggest you work at Dillon .). I mic'd my primer punch yesterday and it's .149. We need to talk about shell plates... I understand exactly what you are saying, it's well greased, I've run the nut down until it's tight and then the instructions say 1/8 turn back... I tightened mine further to only 1/16 back, it's still pretty easy to turn, but it's right on the edge of being tight vs. loose... I will pull it and check for flat.... I suspect it still is.. But this brings up a whole bunch of issues/question that I have around the shellplate the swaging station, etc. Because the primer punch is not in the center of the primer when the head comes down, you can see the brass move in the shellplate when it get's primer and it always flexes inward, this is because the primer punch is pushing more on the outside of the primer than the center, and this is the direction that the primer always get's smashed... (inward and outward as it relates to the center of the press). Alan A

Got to thinking while on my walk this morning. I don't believe the primer is hanging up on the edge of the primer pocket. What I believe is now happening...and I noticed this issue while going through all the above. - The primer punch does not center on the primer when it pushing it up out of the primer bar, it's slightly off center, that is problem one - I believe in my case as was mentioned above, that the edges of my primer punch are rounded off and either it came that way or they have worn, that is problem 2 What that means is that when the primer attempts to seat, the primer punch tries to push it up in an off centered, and slight unsupported orientation, this causes the primer to start to go in sideways, to the side where there is more punch surface area. This in turn causes the primer to squeeze and bulge and tilt. All of this caused the edge opposite the punch supported are to pooch out and then remainder of the press only causes this to worsen. In the end you have a distorted and crushed primer, that has no tension so it fall back out when you release pressure and cam the press back the opposite direction. The reason I came to this conclusion, in my recent testing, I found a couple of primers, that hadn't crushed, but has little *wrinkles* in them where the edge of the primer punch had no support on the primer, in a couple of cases, this wrinkle was a very sharp little bump, almost looked like an edge. With those rounded edged on the primer punch, this just exacerbates the problem and decreases the surface area that the primer has any support from the primer punch. So now why is the primer off center to the punch, the punch isn't hanging on the primer bar and the tolerances of the punch to the primer bar shouldn't allow that. I'm not wondering if this is an addition of tolerances... rounded edges on the primer punch, primer punch to primer punch seat slightly off, primer bar slightly off, if all those line up just right, then you'd have a .01 or thereabouts skew to the alignment of the punch to primer. The rounded edges of the primer punch is probably due to this alignment issue and have just worn over the 3000-4000 rounds that I've put through this press. Now to call Dillon and hopefully get a 1050 expert that I can run all of this by... Anyone know who's an expert there on 1050's that I can ask for? Thanks Alan

Well, I think I'm about to give up... I've tried everything, just when I think I have it, it runs for 30 primers and then crushes 2... Last things I tried... Set the swagging station to swage a little more, still crushing primers. I spent a great deal of time looking at the ones that are set... I noticed a couple of things. a) even the ones that are set are slightly angled, you'd never know if you didn't take an exacto blade and run over them from flush on the headstamp, then you'll notice a little tiny bump on one side of the primer. this is because the primer punch doesn't set on the flat of the primer square, it's flat on it, but it's offset slightly from the center of the primer, we are talking about probably less than .010, maybe something like .007 - .009 off center. c) a couple of the primers that I set, had a small ring mark in them where they started to get sideways, and then centered up and the punch left a small very faint mark from it's round vs. the flat of the primer d) One thing that it may be... The bushing/seat that the primer punch runs in, the one you use the special screwdriver to adjust for flush, it could be off center slightly - or the press is drilled and tapped off center for that bushing. Or, it could be the primer bar and it's hole for the primer is off of alignment, those are only three things that could cause the primer punch to not be centered on the primer. Drats this is a RPITA! And like I said, I've given up... I'll call Dillon on monday and either show them this post or go through all of this with them. Alan

Deleted by originator as it wasn't applicable since the topic move.

Ok, maybe a small breakthru... But one that isn't a perfect solution. I cleared the press and decided to watch just the size, swage, prime stations, I pulled the sized and primed brass out at the powder station. First... a) I pulled out the primer punch and with a set of calipers, it was uniform on the end, no size difference around it, but looking at it at the end, it's far from perfectly round, it's almost 4 leaf clover shaped, but this is partly an optical illusion, and partly due to the chamfer that is on the vertical to flat edge, it's more chamfered in some places than in others.... I'll most likely order a new one of these and a new seat for it. But I don't think this is the issue. I checked all the positions on the shellplate and all *appeared* to be centered with respect to the primer punch and the primer pocket in the primer bar. So I just loaded up 15 shells in the tube and ran them thru those 3 positions... About 2 into the effort, I crushed a primer. Cleared that and ran 5 more before I crushed another one. I decided to play with the tension of the brass at the prime station and this is where I made a discovery. Before I did anything I tried a simple experiment... when a piece of brass was about to be primed, I moved the shell to the most outside position with my fingers, up hard against the primer tension block and then primed it, about 40% of them would fail with a crushed primer. Then I cleared the press again, and just looked at the punch and it's orientation to the primer when the primer was setting on the top of the punch and the handle was all the way down... It was not uniform, in fact, the primer was favoring one side of the punch. I tried to move the primer around thinking maybe there was some play in the primer pocket in the primer bar, but it made no difference. So I loaded up a handful of shells again and this time I set the tension on the primer station snug. I took some heavy paper and with a shell in the press and the primer seated, I put the paper between the shell and the tension block and I pressed it hard and then tightened it... This last step made a huge difference... I ran the next 20 with no issue, with one exception which I can't blame on the press... every once in a while, a primer won't push out when sized, the decapping pin will go to the end of the spring, but it won't snap and I felt it at the swagging station, but didn't check it... sure enough when I got to the prime station, I had smashed the original primer in far enough that the new primer tried to go in, but I stopped due to pressure and cleared the press.... That one was my fault... So, it appears that either the main casting is out of tolerance, the shell plate is, the primer punch guide is not centered, the primer bar is off center or all of them are at their tolerances the wrong way... Lined up, it seems the primer will set a smidge closer to the center of a circle from the center of the press to the radius of the primer pocket location. I'll have to talk to Dillon about that, but I think I'm on my way to solving the problem, after an exhaustive process of ruling things out... Hope this helps the next person, with what to do and what to look for, cuz I'm sure I'm not the first and won't be the last. I did note one thing, the primer punch on a 650 seating small primers is about .015" larger than the same one on the 1050.... I wish they were the same size, it would greatly help this issue.... the punch on a 650 is .165" in diameter, and the 1050 is .149.

Kinda hard to do when you shoot open ... Problem is I *really* like the 1050, but this one, loading 9mm just is funky... Probably could put .40 in it or .223 in it and it would run just fine.... Alas, if I can't find a solution, Dillon will be hearing from me.... Darn it! Alan

I had that out last night and it actually look ok. I'm thinking 2 things at the moment. a) I'm wondering if it's a single station on the shell plate that is always giving me this problem. I'm going to check today and see if may one position on the shell plate is machines out of tolerance to the others I'm wondering if the primer punch is possible slightly too small in diameter and might cause this problem. Beyond that I have no clue...

Yes, I'll take a picture. What they look like is that they attempt to go into the primer pocket, but the edge of the primer hangs on the primer pocket, the little primer seating punch then tries to push that into the pocket and so they almost turn inside out at an angle. The edge that hangs on the primer pocket, stays there, but the primer punch pushes the rest into the primer pocket, usually the primer will then fall out somewhere before the shell moves to the next station. If I didn't know better, I'd say that the primer was at an angle when it tried to go in as that is what they look like when the are crushed, but I can see no way that they could actually be at an angle prior to them being pressed in, so more likely, the brass case isn't centered over the primer, the primer is off center slightly and the punch just pushes it up, catching the primer edge on the brass and pressing the rest of the primer into the primer pocket and crushing the primer. All of mine have been that way... I've verified that the primer pockets on all this WIN brass have a rounded edge, and I've verified that a primer in my fingers will seat into that rounded area. This isn't a case of where a crimped primer pocket with square edges are effecting it (although, when I load mixed, that issue is much more prevalent) Alan

Well, that was an epic fail... about 10 rounds into the new adjustments and I crushed 2 primers back to back. I've now polished the primer pocket on the primer bar, taken a strong light and verified that the primer pocket is centered in the primer tube when viewed from directly above. Take apart the primer rocker mechanism and cleaned and lubed it (not that it really needed it). I've also tightened my shell plate slightly (instructions say, tight then 1/8 back, I'm now tight and 1/16 turn back) I can't figure this out... It's apparent that the primer is centered where it needs to be, it can be nothing other, because of the locking pins on the shellplate. It's picking up a primer every time, and I'd doubt that it's coming into the load position already at an angle, there simply isn't enough room for that to happen, and all my testing with no cases suggest that all the primers are flat in the primer bar. So, only thing left is something to do with the cases and allowing them to move slightly to self center on the primer. So I've adjusted the cartridge retention tab a little more. I'm not sure if it needs to allow play, or allow no play in the cartridge... I'm kinda in the middle now, so I suspect I'll try it tight (business card play), and maybe I should try it *really* loose just for kicks - I mean can it get any worse. In 50 primers, I crushed 5! Come on, what am I doing wrong? Sheesh... Frustrated, Alan

Chris, the Aug special classifier match has been submitted. Should run with this month's update, usually is done by the 15th but just checked and not done yet. I think SEPSA would have had time to get theirs in as well. Tim Pretty sure now that Nationals are started, that they will hold the classifier update till post that... Just a quess, but looks that way at the moment.

I'm just wondering if anyone has any further suggestions... I've tried just about everything. My issue is that at least 1 in a 100 if not 1 in 50 primers, I will crush it at the primer station, this isn't a pickup issue, and it isn't a primer issue (it happens no matter what the brand). The primer always gets in part way, but the rim of the primer will catch on the brass, right at the opening and then it will get crushed. As said, I *never* miss a primer, I just seem to crush them all the time. I'm down to my last effort.... I can load all day on my 650's, but 1050, I'm *always* clearing a jam... I honestly have no idea how commercial guys can use these in this configuration. Ok, now, I should tell you, this in 9mm. Here's what I did last night... Hoping to see the results tonight. a) I replaced the swaging rod, not the backup but the long one on the bottom, I adjusted it for a rather light, if any swage (I'll explain why in a minute) c) I'm going to use one headstamp in this recent test... Those being hand sorted WIN brass, all known to have a good primer pocket (all been casepro'd) and all hand sorted to remove any NT, or WCC brass, it will just be 200 or 300 WIN brass d) I took the shell plate off, cleaned and lubed it, I pulled the primer tube off and the primer slider bar and cleaned all of that e) I replace the primer drop tube, the one that inserts into the larger tube f) I had to adjust the primer seating depth, but that is all good now as well. g) I have re-adjusted (about the millionth time) the white plastic part that holds the shell in the primer station, Dillon suggested to allow it to float more than I had prior. h) everything else got a little lube where needed. This is a Super 1050 btw. About the only thing that I've noticed is that when the slider picks up a primer, the arm that rides on the pin that indexes the slider in and out, will push the primer bar in too far, probably about 1/16 of an inch past the center where the primer needs to be.... But the pin in the head, when the shell plate comes up, will recenter it before it tries to be seated in the brass. So, what else can I do... this press only has maybe 3000 rounds through it and it's never ran right... So far Dillon has had no other suggestions.... It's so frustrating, that it's tempting to sell it and get another (heck 2 more 650's).... sheesh.... As a final thought the concensus prior to tonight was that the swaging station wasn't doing it's job... so I'm taking it out of the equation by using hand sorted WIN brass.... if it runs this way, I'll go back to mixed and see if I can find the happy medium for adjusting the swage station. ps. I've ground so many cases with a cutaway slot so that I can setup the swage station right that sometimes I think I have more of them than actual loaded ones from it This can't be this bad, or difficult, but any help appreciated.

I got my 24" vent rib from SGC, a year ago, an FN SLP barrel that works just great on my SX3 - thanks again Tod! Alan

They aren't up yet, but when they are, it should be here... http://www.gastatechampionships.com/index.php/ros I'm a local and I believe they are working through a couple of scoring issues that were identified after the fact... Alan

Big assumptions on my part... My JoJo gun is a full length bull barrel... A Schumann actually, I load 1.165 OAL with 7.0-7.1gr of AutoComp. This behind a 124 MG JHP, and using a regular (non-magnum) CCI small primer. This load in my Jojo gun just runs and runs and runs.... When Jojo tuned the extractor/ejector with that load and one of the members was there when he ran 200 rounds through it. Said the pile of brass as a nice small pile... I have 2 recommended loads from Jojo, I'll see if I can't dig the up. One was with AutoComp... Mine above I've chrono'd from low to high temps and it's always around 170 PF... Start low and try that powder... it works really well in Jojo's guns... Alan

All, just a quick update for Peter the guys who's busting his butt most of the days. We didn't get very much rain at the range, I was on 8 of the 9 stages today and this for sure will not be a mud bowl. In fact, it should be an excellent match.. The weather right now for the range on Friday/Sat is high's in the low 80's and sunny, little if any wind.... By GA standards a *perfect day*. For those that are going to miss this match, you lose, 8 of the 9 stages are all setup, few final tweaks and pretty adjustments, tomorrow banners, signage and parking lots adjustments, plus the final stage. Registration should be open as expected at the hotel listed in the match book, etc. The stages are excellent, this one should be really fun to shoot and compete in. All in all an outstanding performance by the setup crew, and Peter and Mark!!! (hats off). Alan

Thanks again Tom, we might try this approach just to see what interest we get... Looks similar to what I was after and with reactive steel, it should be low range maint... Alan

Tom, this looks like it could work. Couple quick questions a) so you use a timer I assume that is set for 15 seconds par time and you start and stop it for each shooter? where did you get your dog targets? Thanks in advance, Alan