CocoBolo

Well I finally pulled one off. Yep, and what makes it really sweet is I won it in the Pistol Stages. I picked up a foot fault in one of the Rifle Stages and a procedural in one of the shotgun stages I thought I had blown it but I won the match with room to spare. This was the 4th match for the New Edge I was shooting, back from the dark side (open), maybe shooting open makes you a better limited shooter. Many thanks to STI, FN, Marlin, Winchester, Montana Gold, Precision, Federal and Chevy for getting me to the match.

A 200gr or 220gr bullet will give less flip at the same power factor. While we are breaking it down lead or black bullets take less powder to go the same speed so they shoot softer than jacketed bullets. I was shooting 200gr Zero Jacketed FN in my Edge, the load was 4.3 gr of TiteGroup loaded long out to 1.185. This load was soft and flat. I have also shot 180gr Zero JHP's with 5.1-5.2gr of WST, this is a slightly snappy load with the gun cycling fairly quickly. I have switched to 185gr Precision Black bullets running 4.4gr of N320 or 4.7-4.8gr of WST. These loads are also soft and flat with the N320 being more like the 200gr load than the WST. I went to the dark side for six months (open) so when I came back to limited the fisrt thing I notice was feeling the slide, it seemed like it was in slow motion with the 200br, so I went down to 185gr and a little snappier powder (WST). I probably could have droped the recoil spring a pound or two and had the same effect. Limited guns don't respond to different powders as much as open guns but I found that some powders tend to shoot softer with all other things equal like PF. WST seems to work best with Black bullets and TiteGroup just works great with 200gr jacketed bullets, N320 seems to work well with either. BullsEye didn't work for me, I rate it as violent and abrupt. Solo 1000 shots fairly soft as does 231. In the end I always use my Timer to test how good a load is. Yep, the evil plate rack at a moderate distance taking timed runs looking at splits and overall time, shooting a couple hundred rounds of each and comparing the results. I just can't trust my body to be the judge it and my brain can be confused by changes is sound etc.

Ok, lets settle the score on the Ultimate mag. If you are a C class shooter with no chance to win a stage having the extra rounds won't make that much difference to you. You could beat your nemisis old Roy but not the big dawgs. Now in the hands of a GM and I personally saw Manny Bragg win a 24 round stage at the 2009 double tap by having that extra capacity and knowing a little math. Yes he had 23, the stage was 24 rounds, he was one short. Not taking the shot cost a max of 15 points the -10 + the 5 points he could have gotten. He shot the stage in under 8 seconds, so in order to break even (the hit factor was 15) he would have had to reload and take the shot in under 1 second. I'm with him it wasn't worth the risk. I'm keeping it on the list, I won't try to run the full capacity in a stage but I will try to go 22 rounds if things stack up that way. Most of the time even with 20 I only plan for 16 or a spot in a big stage that makes making it to the end guranteed. If I were a GM going to the nationals, Like my Visa Card I wouldn't leave home without it.

I think that you will find that the Jacketed Bullets will not shoot softer since you have to add more powder to get it up to speed. I have used both Zero and MTG, the MTG on average will take .2gr more of powder to get to the same speed. With 4.3 gr TiteGroup and a 200gr Zero loaded out to 1.185-1.190 it makes about 172 pf at 70 to 80 F, but at 40 F it shot up to 189 pf according to the Chrono at the Lousiana Gator, I won that stage. In a 180gr MTG or Zero I run about 5.1 or 5.2 gr of WST to hit power factor and it takes about 5 gr of N320 to get there. I do have to say the MTG is a good bullet the Zero is a little better. I shoot Precision Black bullets in 185gr, with 4.4gr of N320 or 4.7-4.8 gr of WST. When I started out I shot 200gr Zeros but as my skill improved and I was able to handle the recoil better I found that the 185gr Precision or the 180 gr Zero gave me a better over all feel and allowed me to shoot the gun faster. With the 200gr the gun seemed to be sluggish. Its an Edge with a 14lb Variable recoil spring. A good friend of mine shoots 220gr Precision in his limited or limited 10 gun, he says the gun just stays in the A zone. Maybe he has something he won Limited 10 at the TX State Open, he runs TiteGroup since he has a truck load of it.

There is nothing forgiving about a cast or black bullet, these take a greater amount of skill to relaod. If you don't have the skill you will be spending hours scouring out your barrel. Now its hard to mess up a jacketed bullet, yep it is what I call idiot proof. Plated bullets also take more care than jacketed, as a little too much crip and your shooting the no shoot instead of the shoot target they just go all over the place. Powders there are lots but since you said 9 mm I recommend WST with black or swag lead bullets, if you are doing jacketed bullets then go for titegroup. WST can produce a wide speard and the standard deviation can be huge but its good stuff with lead and black bullets. TiteGroup is like popping smoke with lead bullets, the enemy can see you running thru the smoke. For Jacketed bullets I recommend Montana Gold for the budget conscious get a case and the price isn't bad. I don't use JHP's even in my open gun I will use round nose they feed the best so what if the group is .0000003 bigger, a jam will cost you a stage. The best bullet I have found is the Zero it costs a little more but takes about .2 gr less than the Montana Gold to push at the same speed. Since you going to do lead anyway, look at the Lee Cowboy Die for an expander, when loading lead or black bullets you need to flare the case well else you will cut the coating. Also make sure you use a Taper Crimp die, if you use a Lee Factory Crimp Die it will undersize the bullet it will go rattling down the barrel and leave an pound of lead behind it. Make sure you use a SAMMI gauge, aka Drop Check, aka plunk checker, 9 mm case size is critical and you will have jams from down under if the brass won't drop in the drop check. I start out doing 9 mm by depriming and sizing all the cases then drop checking and trowing out the fat boys before loading. This will save you a bunch of primers and bullets instead of filling up the reject bucket. Check your length, each bullet shape will require a differnt length. First check to see if it fits in the mag, if it does not its too long, next take you barrel out of the gun ease the bullet down into it feeling for resistance etc. IF you have the same shape bullet in a factory round that works in the gun load that length. 9 mm forgives not .001 too long. I have found that the load table lengths are generally usless unless they are for the exact bullet you are loading. Long is better, less pressure, too short and you may get super face. The most dangerous thing is a Squib, because they don't come in pairs, the next live round will split the barrel and probably ruin the slide if not the frame. Make sure its got powder, in 9 mm a double charge is almost impossible it will run over the case first so if you got powder all over the shell plate maybe you missed someithing? Recipe ok 125 gr Jacketed 9 mm 4.7gr of WST will produce 130 PF, decrease to 4.3 gr for a Black bullet same weitht. 125gr Jacketed 9 mm 4.3gr of TiteGroup will produce 130 pf, I don't recommend TiteGroup for lead or black bullets. You can start with WST at 3.8 gr and it will run the gun and you can chrono to see where you need to go. Good Luck. If your loading for an OPen gun make another post, Yes, I have seen a guy running a 9 mm open gun with Lead Bullets, in fact they had Red Wax on them, when he did unload a shot clear the gun looked like someone puked in it, on the 9 th stage of the day it did upchuck and die.

Personally I would only have a better gun built, a spare gun could be your single stack, or your carry gun, after all your primary gun should be double tuff and ultra reliable. Any gun build is going to be expensive so go first class and make the old gun the backup.

Add to the list 1 ea 22 round mag from Emanuel Bragg. No ultimate limite gun could be complete without the ultimate mag. At $175.00 it isn't cheap but pony up with 23 rounds now that could make or break a stage.

1911Jerry I'm just going to take you up on that offer. I'll be at the AASA 3-Gun Saturday with our old friend Ted Bonnet. If you don't mind I'll use my loads and mags. By the way did you get those mags un-tuned so the gun will run? Let's recap the mods that have made the list: Aftec Extractor Lightening the Slide - Possible Sexy cuts and patterns. Just what an old man needs to be sexy. High Ride wide Ambi Safety Stipple the Grip - Cactus Pattern you just can't turn it loose. Hard Chrome - Make it durable and more sexy. Paint Grip - If were going to be sexy lets do it right. Alum Guide Rod - Weight reduction. Cut the Dust Cover length down PIN Grip Safety On the question of stretching it to a 6" er, you need to reverse the question to come to the right answer. Would you consider a 4" gun? The answer on that one would be a unanimous no. So obviously longer without adding weight would be a plus. The mags are tuned so it doesn't lock back. We may be on the way to designing a whole new gun, but its starting to get interesting.

Merlin - That Jerry M down in Lousiana the Revolver guy told me 250,000 rounds then I would know enough to ask questions. Since I started shooting pistol < 2 years ago, I have probably shot 20,000 rounds. The gun actually shoots very nice, and I have put about 10,000 rounds thru it, and my guess is it has about 50,000 on it. Its an old Edge has the Eagle on it from the days when STI was in Austin. The almost new Edge I picked up that had only Dawson's test shots thru it shoots just about as good as that old gun. I'm going to keep an Open mind about the 6" gun, that HSmith commented on. I passed on a Benny Fat Free because it had a bull barrel and I think the new trend is to lighter slides and less moving weight which includes the barrel. Thanks for the reminder, practice is the true way to being a better shooter. Dry Fire 15 minutes a day, every day and you will get better every weeks. If the gun made that much difference I would be faster with an open gun, no I'm definately faster with a limited gun.

Benny Hill seems to have a following, I certainly want to keep that option open. A aftec would come under reliability, but is a worth while since it will be in the shop anyway. It has ambi safety the sdt STI ones however the high ride ones could make the gun easier to shoot. Bedell is more known for 9 mm open guns, I don't think I have seen one of his Spitfire's at a match. Good Input.

Safety is the biggest concern. I have seen an expierenced (B Class) shooter with proper equipement torch a round thru their own leg. With newbies in a local match my opinion is there is some flexibilty you have to have, but if in fact the gun is pointed in such a way if it went off the round would go out of the park or other wise create danger to anyone then you must DQ. As SteveJ pointed out if an AD happens it is a DQ. It is no fun to DQ a shooter, but its better than holding up the match waiting on Air Life to fly them out or someone else that suffered the consequences of their unsafe gun handling. I would certainly point out what they need to work on and how to be safe and how you would like to have them back once they are a safe shooter.

I just bought an almost new Sti Edge in 40. My old Edge is in good condition. It is equipped as follows. Bull Barrel, Adjustable Sights, Fiber Optic Front Sight, Tungsten Guide Rod (heavy), 13 lb Variable recoil Spring, Dawson Ice Mag Well, 1.75 lb trigger, extended mag release with Brazos Button. Are there other things I should do to this gun to make it into the ultimate limited gun? Mods I am considering: Remove the fat from the slide, lighten the slide. How much and who should I get to do it? All mods should be functional, it don't matter what it looks like, and lets think outside the wallet, we will worry about the cost later. The gun has always run 100% and is more accurate than I will ever be, and lets pretend that I have the ability to shoot the gun at its full potential. Thanks in advance for your input.

I sold my 40 open a while back but I ran 135Gr with 7.2 Gr IMR 7625 at just over 1300 fps. I had a bunch of this ammo left over and a friend shooting limited needed ammo for a match, he shot it in his PARA limited gun and shot his best match ever. Go figure, maybe I need to be using this load in my Limited gun? I tried HS6 at 8.8 gr with the 135gr but it was to weak to cycle the gun, but it was plenty loud.

I have run 2 38SC open guns for 6 months and both run 100% and its no accident. I have a CasePro and run all my brass thru it so I have lots of matches with no malfunctions. I see a lot of problems with folks blowing cheap casess non +P lots of racking of slide and folks that don't clean their mags complaining about salt shaker mags. I will say that shooting Open is much harder than most folks realize, its a big adjustment going to the dot, it takes a lot of dry fire and a lot of dicipline to keep perfect form so you won't be dancing the C-More shuffle. I have friends with 9 mm major, they went thru the right of passage and got them running, once they are running it is similar to 38 S, however the choice in powders is a shorter list. I solved the Brass issue by becoming an RO. I came back from Double Tap this year with 2000 pieces of 38 Super, then went to Space City and TX Open etc so while I was shooting lost brass matches I was getting more and more brass. I started with 1000 when I bought the first gun now I have about 6000 pieces plus 500 of he new ones still in the box. I also have a 5 gallon bucket full of 9 mm and lots of 40. I would have to say that the feel and pluse of a Limited Gun is similar to the Single Stack, I currently have my open guns parked and have started shooting limited again. Since you are an A class SS you should do great in limited, you will just have to break the habbit of reloading everytime you move. You won't need a second gun you can just use you single stack as a spare. You can pick up a used Edge for about $1500 if you like a lite gun and can handle recoil well just have the fat cut off the slide and your ready to go. Good Luck!

We RO's shot today. By 8:30 everyone was sweating. By 1:30 pm the oven was up to temp. There will be some water, but with 90 shooters it won't last long. Bring some of your own to be on the safe side. Bring a small towl you can wet down and cool off with. Put some ice and water in a garden sprayer and get someone to hose you down. The stages are mentally challenging, there is hard cover, long range head shots, ample no shoots for your shooting pleasure, swingers, drop turns, clam shells, Texas Star, beach ball, and a bucket with 20 lbs of cement. Every stage has many ways to be shot some work better than others. There is a memory test stage, I don't have any memory so I figured out how to shoot it without a memory, no I'm not telling. Did I forget anything, what was the question? It is a good match I enjoyed it a lot. Show me the money!

I use Precision 200 gr SWC's they are moly coated have rounded edges on all the surfaces. I don't have leading or build up issues. I had issues with Precision Delta's SWC with its sharp edges. (squared off not rounded). +1 on belling, and its easy to spot on the shell plate, you will get little pieces of lead on it if you are cutting the bullet at seating. I use a hornady belling die and it does a good job. I also have a Lee Universal belling die that is made for cowboy action shootes and the thing will bell anything from 22 to 50 cal. The regular powder thru lee die is terrible, you bell it then when you raise the handle the outer edges of the die close it back up. +1 on the chore boy, they work well and you avoid the risk of pitting the barrel with chemicals, I had to buy a barrel after soaking it too long. If the chamber has a lot of rough surfaces a little polishing with some Flitz would probably reduce the leading.

If you going to shoot factory 9 mm, I would suggest the STI Steel Master. A couple of C class limited shooters here bought Steel Masters they shoot 9 mm Walmart Ammo both made B class in nothing flat and they have been dooing very well in Major and Local matches. Shooting minor will make you focus on good hits and that is a very good thing, without good hits it doesn't matter how fast you are. Good Luck

I watched the stages noticed a couple of things, read XRE's observations watched again, I have to say he has pointed out a number of opportunities for improvement, small ones but your down to the small mistakes, I'm still working on the big ones. It was actually an education for me. I have shot with XRE, and have RO'ed him at a couple of majors, it is very interesting to watch him disect a stage, the man is methodical.

A while back I was researching Major 9, I found the attached load/chrono sheet from a reliable source. I've used HS6 on 38SC with 125gr and found it to be a little too harsh for my taste. Plus no one wanted to shoot with me because it was super loud with my GT V8. Just watch for pressure signs as you increase the load, calculate PF at each level before moving on. If you have reached your goal stop.

Three of us started shooting together about 1 1/2 years ago. 2 of us are still shooting a C class Open, and me I just made C in Open and C in limited, and have not shot production or single stack except one classifier and almost made C at you know 39% in both. Like most novice shooter we acquired one new gun a month just to get better. That does not work, its not the gun its the shooter anything that runs and can hit fairly well is a great gun for everything below A class. When we started we thought we shot well if it only took 4 times as long for us to shoot a stage as a fast guy. Now we think we are shooting well when it takes us less than 2 times as long. I dry fire a little every week, more when shooting open because of the cursed dot, less when shooting limited. I do 6-8 local matches a month. Do a live fire practice about once every other month. I have come to the point where I can shoot a classifer very well, its about learning your limitations, keeping in mind that no amount of blazing speed will make up for a mike, you have to make your points in a classifier. I shot a 60% last Sunday and beat a GM that was 3 seconds faster but had a mike. Being a computer scientist I uderstand the math and it takes just a few consecutive good scores to move up, a poor one just holds you back, thats how an average works. My target is to make B in limited by the end of the year or by the time I have been shooting 2 years. At 60 that seems to be a fairly reasonable goal.

My Daughter says that Guapos in ShirleyVille is better than Poncho Villa's. I sure don't have any Idea what the local food is in VA. Most of the time when I go to matches like the Gator in Lousiana you try the local food, its part of the fun in the Match and Trip. Any Idea when the stages will be posted?

I have seen a lot of TiteGroup shot behind precison bullets, and I have seen a can tell who is shooting it by the smoke clouds. It can get so bad you can't see the targets. I shoot precison bullets in a 40 for limited, I use WST works great. I shoot Clays 4.2 gr with 200 gr Precsions in 45 SS, I have also shot VV N320 and WST at 4.7-8 gr with good results. The Clays just shoots softer.

Today I shipped my ammo from TX to VA for the Area 8 Championship. The hard part was finding a UPS hub. Don't waste your time trying to call them, I tired that and listened to the machine ramble on about everything. I tried the locate as well on their web site. I went to a UPS store and they directed me to what they called a hub. Which as it turns out was listed as a Customer Service Center on their web site, so that may also mean hub or depot. I just told them I had an O-RMD shipment of ammo, I had two boxes the lady said I have a bigger box that will make it cheaper and she repackaged the ammo in the bigger box taped it up and put the labels on. She supplied the O-RMD label. I sent 600 rounds of 9 mm and 400 rounds of 40. There are two of us shooting the box weighed in at 35 lbs and with $500 insurance it cost $42.00 to ship ground. The match isn't till the end of August, but it will be there in 5 days. I am going to ship my ammo to to the nationals, and I will probably go with 750 rounds since there are 18 stages and the max is 32 per stage and an allowance for extra shots and a re-shoot or two. Yes this will be my first Nationals rodeo, should be a wild ride.

Golly Gee The gun is already expensive and it is advertised as a Production Class Gun. I stay test it as is and report its faults in the Front Sight and Sig should wake up and correct the design and live up the their Ads. Changing the recoil to preference should be ok. Why not first test it with factory ammo. Then run your loads and change the recoil spring. Anything that has to be done by a smith Sig should do or change their add to say a gun you could build a production gun from. If your going to spend $1500 to $2000 just go ahead a shoot open. I have two STI Open guns both bought used for under $1500. I had a CZ75 TS an out of the box limited gun for $1000.00 new. I happen to have a Sig 226 and have shot it in production and it runs pretty well, I prefer to use the Wife's CZ75 B, that yes had a trigger job. Cost of gun with all added parts and labor @ $600.00. I thought the whole point of production was to cut the cost of shooitng in USPSA. When I saw the first add for one I called around trying to find one, now I think I will wait till your report is done.

I have shot many thousands of rounds thru my hunting 1100 remington. It was a new gun back in 1972 still shoots like new. So I have nothing bad to say about a remington. In 3-Gun I shoot an FN SLP MK II, picked it up brand new last July for $629. The FN is Heavier than the Rem but cycles faster than a Benelli, and has less recoil than the Rem. All opinions are for out of the box guns, not a souped up custom. I shoot Tactical. If I were shooting open I would shoot a Saiga, the reloading advantage is huge. I have seen stock Saiga's actually work for an entire match and in the hands of a poor shooter that did very well.