Loves2Shoot

I did, a paster is a 1" square.

The original OP is adamant about a group guarantee, which no one who does these guns offers. A percentage increase in accuracy is the question 90%+ of the people ask.

I don't doubt that you do good work and deliver accurate guns.But I can also understand the frustration that some get with the lack of hard numbers. A guarantee of it will shoot right or it will get a new barrel is pretty vague. Obviously the shooter deciding if it shoots right has some idea of accuracy in relation to inches to make that decision. Garmil, how would you give an improvement guarantee if you don't what mechanical accuracy the gun has to start with? We generally do not advise people to buy barrels, our customers come to us because they know what we do and want us to do it for them. We do our best to give our customers the most accurate product possible and with the variances in a Production pistol I do not want to undersell the accuracy with a group that is overly large. I've spent more time in this thread dealing with one non-customer than all the customers we've had in the last 10 years who trust us to do what we do.

He was told in extensive detail why we don't give a group guarantee or percentage of accuracy increase. Some of these guns are very accurate from the factory.

Why say this and contradict every other post you're written in this thread? After doing a barrel swap/fit do you normally test fire? If yes what size would the group need to be for you to keep working on it and not sent it to the customer? A group is not equal to 5 shots at 5 individual points on a target. We have fit many hundreds of barrels on the XD/XDM. If you have a good fit, you can tell before you ever go to the range that it will group well. Yes, we test every gun we work on, and if it doesn't shoot right we fit a new barrel. This is a super rare occurrence. Part of being able to test a pistol is highly reliant on your ability to call you shots and having the bullets go where you saw them go. That is why groups don't mean much, as you will not have a perfect hold on every shot without a mechanical fixture. A well fit Barsto barrel with good ammo will be able to hit the 1" paster IF you do your part.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now. Objective is mechanically repeatable to a very high percentage. A good shooter can observe that the bullet went where it the sights said it should go. The groups size could be larger than the perfect group and be a very straight shooting gun. I've given you that data, and you said is not valuable. The data would be a test group fired from my gun under controlled conditions, which is where this thread started . I have a Bruce Gray to shoot the best groups possible, but as I originally stated, we would have to do a before and after to obtain the detail you requested. That is cost prohibitive for most folks.

Yes you made the plastic frame / ransom rest point clear previously, I'm not sure why you would think that a human can not be involved in an objective test though, if that is the point you are making now. Objective is mechanically repeatable to a very high percentage. A good shooter can observe that the bullet went where it the sights said it should go. The groups size could be larger than the perfect group and be a very straight shooting gun. I've given you that data, and you said is not valuable.

As explain many times, the plastic frame and fit between the slide and frame do not lend this pistol to fixture shooting so it takes a human. 5" is an overly huge spec, and pretty much meaningless.

Most all of our customers understand this. A very small minority want something that can only be tested subjectively to have an objective "guarantee."

Our extended length only M&P release.

They did it 8 years ago, this is not new. One of the reasons is exactly as you stated.

The Catalyst increase the size of the head by including the guide part of the release to the face of the release.

Magazine releases in Production Division USPSA There have been a lot of questions lately regarding extended magazine releases in Production Division. Here's a little information that will hopefully clear up some of the confusion. For some reason, this exact wording did not make the 2014 rules set. I've introduced a ruling to clarify this information, and it will be added to the online version of the Handgun rules as soon as possible. The key wording here concerns aftermarket parts. The part can only make the magazine release button longer, not wider, unless it's an OFM (Original Firearm Manufacturer — changed from OEM in 2012 or so) part available on some other approved model. There are several aftermarket suppliers that have magazine releases that are identical to the OFM magazine release, only longer. These are approved for use in Production Division. From the 2009 interpretations and rulings: An external part which extends only the length of the magazine-release button is specifically allowed in section 21.6 of the 2009 interpretation, whether the part is OEM or aftermarket. If the part provides a larger surface area (a big head, a button, a paddle, etc.)...

Have you been inside a new Kimber?

If his inbox is half as full as mine, I don't think it will take him long to get it handled (again.)

"An external part which extends only the length of the magazine-release button is specifically allowed in section 21.6 of the 2009 interpretation, whether the part is OEM or aftermarket." http://www.nroi.org/archives/2009/04/frequently_aske.html

He said it shouldn't be a big deal to clean up the language.

That was my understanding too.... If I made a mag release that was just longer than the original it would not be allowed as I am not a factory and therefore the part would not be widely available. Troy called me and confirmed that a part matching the factory part that is just extended (as our parts are) are legal per 21.6's Special Notes/clarifications. Britain, yes you could do that. The clarification makes the parts more available as some factories do not sell parts to the general public. He also stated that they should be able to fix the wording to include the verbiage that is has to be Factory/OFM or match Factory/OFM in the rulebook.

Special Notes/Clarifications: "A factory/OFM magazine release which extends only the length of the magazine release may be used." We specifically make an factory release that extends the length only per the 21.6 rule. It is specifically allowed.

That does not match the ruling we had from John, and Troy verified to us that if we match the factory parts (we make a metal trigger for the XDM to match the original trigger it came with before the switch to a plastic one) then it is OK. They were used recently at the Nationals and the shooters were not moved into Open division in the XDM, M&P, and P320.

Eric, Hardchrome is softer, just a lot thicker.

Measure the wire diameter, the thinner the wire the lighter the spring.

You can hit a 1" paster at 25 yards with good ammo and a steady hold, but that wasn't what you were asking.

From a buyers perspective, a minimum performance guarantee is the difference between knowing what you are paying for and not knowing. To me that is of great use in every buying decision. The more data the supplier provides the better. If you tell me 3" worst case with an 80% chance for significantly better performance then I now have at least something to think about and use decide if your service would be the right option to pursue. As a supplier, what you establish as acceptable pass/fail limits on quality and what services you offer are going to be driven by hard and soft costs & data & competitor practices & customer satisfaction & etc.. Not hard to understand. Well, that is what I tell folks. You just happened to contact us while the person that typically answers those questions is on the beach in Hawaii. I've had stock barrels shoot sub 2", so we can not guarantee and increase in performance without testing a pistol first. How much more accurate will the barrel make my pistol is the #1 question people ask, not what group size should I expect. I can tell when I fit a barrel if the first is right or not, shooting it is just a re-verification of what we already know. Apparently, our customers are OK with trusting us to do a good job without a certificate. The ones that aren't are free to chose someone else.

I can count the number of people that have asked for a group size guaranty on one hand in the last 10 years. We've fit over 1,000 barrels in that same time. Here is the question that I would pose to you: If you know that many guns will group between 1.5" and 2.5" at 25 yards with a properly fit barrel, maybe 40% being 1.5", 40% 2" and 20% between 2.1 and 2.5" would you say, lets grantee a 3" group just to be safe or 2" knowing that 20% might be a tad over it? What value does that really have? Honestly, some people get it. It is more of a hassle to deal with guaranteed worth than any return we would get. I can also count the number of people who have returned barrels because they didn't shoot straight enough for them on one hand. Our work is based on referral and word of mouth, so if we don't do a good job, it is up to us to fix it or refund the customer, so not doing a good job means we lose money instead of make money. If we have a fixture that could print every barrel, we would offer that, but since we must rely on the skill of our shooters, it is subjective to some degree, even though we nave some very accurate shooters. Getting the bullets where you want them to be and having the gun run reliably are both important and a properly fit Barsto barrel does both well.