Chuck Anderson

The numbers are available, I just don't know how easy to read they would be. Each AD gets a printout quarterly of all mission count submitted in his area. It's all broken down by match venue, date and Division. I know the main office has the data, I just don't know if it's searchable, or if it would be worth the effort to collate. I'm pretty sure the folks that want 15 rounds wouldn't be convinced if every person in every ban state shot Production.

Since it came up we actually looked at the numbers nationwide this weekend. Limited is the most popular division, number two is not Open, it's Production. It's not that far behind Limited. The only argument I've seen that holds water is that 10 round limits require the purchase of additional magazines. I can buy that and it's a legitimate point. The flip side to that is there are substantial number of Production shooters that own 10 round magazines. Either bought during the ban, or after because they are dirt cheap. I would imagine it'd be about even between the number of existing shooters who needed to buy new magazines and the number of new shooters who could get through a stage with three magazines at 15 rounds. Forget who but someone also brought up that every competition shooter he knows owns multiple guns. First, not sure if existing competition shooters should be the targeted market. While I certainly appreciate the folks already shooting, just shuffling them around from Division to Division doesn't gain the sport anything. Bringing in new shooters does. I would imagine the population of folks who aren't competition shooters, but might be, and only possess one handgun would be significantly higher. I personally know hundreds. Not a made up number either. There are an awful lot of LEO's who only own a duty gun. There are also a lot of normal folks who purchased handguns in recent years who have never shot with us. Be nice if we could draw in some of the hundred thousand plus people who bought guns on Black Friday.

Reason enough not to go there. I'm actually OK with pissing some off if there was a real advantage to doing it. I just don't see it. In response to the argument that it is only about the crime bill magazine limit. It might have started that way but it is certainly different now. I have always had easy access to hicap mags. If I didnt want to shoot 10 I wouldn't. I like the 10 round limit because it forces me to better analyze stages, be more deliberate and accurate with my shots and I like doing something other than just pulling the trigger. So I'll ask the question again, because I still haven't actually read an answer. What problem does changing the Production capacity fix. If we still have an arbitrary cap at 15 how is that appreciably different from what we have now? At least sticking to 10 makes some sense. Ban states and existing equipment. Just not hearing any reason to go to 15 other than why not.

This is another one that varies regionally. We've had at least one, if not two National L10 Champions win with essentially Production guns with a couple of cheap mods. I'm not saying L10 is DA only like Production. The entry costs are generally a lot lower though. The magazines are cheaper, no uber massaged 22 round .40 mags needed, just something that'll feed 10 rounds reliably. The difference between someone shooting a Glock 21 and an STI Edge is a lot less than someone shooting the same gun against the Edge loaded up with 9 more rounds than the .45 holds. Like I said, Production and L10 are the two that I try to get new people into first. Both will allow a basically stock gun to compete rather well. If someone has a minor DA gun, shoot Production. If there are some mods, or it's major, or it's SA, shoot L10. Once you get your feet wet, then you can shell out 6-700 bucks for magazines.

I agree! I too would like to see the Production magazine capacity to be increased to 15. OK, so let's look at this. What does changing to 15 actually do? It obsoletes several guns, some shooters equipment, and will probably piss some folks off. That's the downside. What do we get in return for this? 5 extra rounds in the magazine. Most stages are going to 8 round neutral. Which means that unless it's a rare 12-16 round stage you're still going to have to reload. You're probably going to have to reload every time you move anyway, you're just throwing mags on the ground with more ammo. You're still going to have new people, and probably people that have been doing it for awhile who want to load their magazines all the way up and don't understand why they can't when it's only one or two more rounds. I've heard three options for capacity change. Leave it 10 round Open it all the way up (20+round Production guns) Or cap it at another arbitrary number, 15, 16 whatever. When I look at a rule change I view it the same way I view a negotiation. If I'm giving up something I want a return. We can screw with Production rules till the cows come home. Make changes every couple years. But if there is a change we should have it accomplish a goal. IPSC instituted a 15 round limit as a way to deal with Production guns that were coming from the factory with longer grips, or magazines, just to increase capacity. They were seeing 20+ rounds in Production. When they went to 15 it was a way to control that. And it was an easier decision to make. They went down in capacity. No guns currently in use were any less viable for Production. Sure some weren't as competetive if you consider they went from having a 3 round advantage to no advantage but it didn't make them useless. For USPSA to go up we would be making guns that are currently viable, not anymore. Heck I think there's even a thread on here about someone shooting Production with an 8 shot Revo. Not the best but still reasonably fun. Tell him he's now up against guys with 16 rounds in the gun and I think that will change. I guess for me if there is a group of current Production shooters, or folks that really want to switch to Production, but just won't because of the 10 round rule, I'd like to hear why. What advantage, or new pool of shooters, do we gain opening it to 15 rounds to make up for the loss of the competetive equality that Production gives us. And make no mistake, that's what Production is about.

There were two that I'm aware of, three if you consider that one was actually a father and son and both sets of equipment were stolen. This has happened in other venues as well. Memory serves, one bullet manufacturer had a whole trailer stolen in Tulsa. Speaking of Tulsa, I'd be OK with going back but the range has brand new owners. Till they get a bit more established I'm not sure they are ready, or even interested, in hosting USPSA again. Either way, after 2012, Phil will be picking where they go. If you've got an idea send it to him. He's very open to suggestions and responsive.

There's are lots of reasons. Bend is actually a much better three gun range than Albany. Lots of space. New club leadership that is actually interested in holding matches again. Plus there's something coming. Just need a couple weeks to get it locked in before announcing. It'll be worth the drive.

My $.02. I see very little need to remove L-10 at this point. When you look at overall statistics of who is shooting what Division it varies greatly regionally. At least within Area 1 we don't have any states that have 10 round limitations. Yet there are still a lot of clubs that it's popular at, much more so than Limited, or really any other Division. My SWAG is it has more to do with top shooters and friends. What I normally see is if there is a top shooter in a Division, people will gravitate towards it to compete against him. If the top dog shoots Open, you'll have more Open shooters, same thing for Production or Limited. The way I explain the Divisions to new shooters are Open and Limited are the Race Divisions. Limited is essentially Open with no comps/optics and .40 cal. The guns are still very expensive. The magazines are expensive. You pretty much have to reload for either and the equipment, holsters etc is identical. Production and L-10 are the base Divisions. Production if your gun shoots 9mm, L10 if it shoots .40 or .45. L10 if you've already made a modification, i.e. painting the edge of your magwell. We bring in a lot of new shooters with .40 cal or .45 guns. It's easy to explain L10 to them. Load 10 rounds and have fun. They don't have to worry about expensive basepads, tuned magazines etc. Most would rather shoot for Major points then shoot a .45 and be scored Minor. Single Stack and Revolver are more niche Divisions. If you want to shoot that specific gun, here is the Division for you. Neither has a broad base but both have very ardent followers. As far as Open 10, Revo 8, Production 15, I don't see significant gains to justify adding them. I could be wrong and I'm always willing to hear the other side. Just don't think there is a big enough market to justify adding another Division to a crowded field.

And speaking of Area 1, December 15 is the last day for Area 1 members to be guaranteed a slot. This match is likely going to fill up. If you want in, now's the time to sign up.

Not to put a damper on the parade of ideas, but maybe a new thread? This is getting quite a ways off from a discussion of election results.

Hi, If this reply is an answer to my query, from my understanding what you quoted would be for future elections. My question was in regards to the recent runoff for President. Cheers .... There is no provision in the current bylaws for lost or late ballots. Basically if they didn't get them, they didn't vote. There is no provision to over turn the election we just had. The election is over.

I would add to Rob's statement that any vote on a bylaw change would take place in January, after the officer will be in place. USPSA has an election cycle that has two to three elections a year. If we waited on every issue we'd never get anything done. That said, both Kyle and Phil were there, and are fully in the loop on any potential change. But thank you for your opinion on the appropriateness of this action. Did you have a better option? Yes, wait until January to start the process. That way, the new folks would be in place and the old folks would be gone. But what is done, is done. The new folks were there and involved in the discussion. So unless your argument is that somehow having two of the most experienced BOD members there was somehow a detriment I really don't understand your concern. We have four AD's up for election in 2012 and no more in person meetings scheduled for several months. I guess we could make the decision by email. I just thought the membership deserved as much consideration and discussion as possible. That happens best in person.

I would add to Rob's statement that any vote on a bylaw change would take place in January, after the officer will be in place. USPSA has an election cycle that has two to three elections a year. If we waited on every issue we'd never get anything done. That said, both Kyle and Phil were there, and are fully in the loop on any potential change. But thank you for your opinion on the appropriateness of this action. Did you have a better option?

I had a lot of fun at this match. Could definitely tell some of the range folks were new to 3-Gun. Not bad new, more fun new. Saw lots of stuff I haven't seen at different matches. Had a blast shooting this one. Great facility for three gun. Looking forward to coming back.

This is a not an easy decision for anyone in USPSA. The bottom line is there are certain things that will make a USPSA match, not a USPSA match. If clubs start invoking local rules it really stops being local rules. I've had lots of clubs ask for local rules. None of them have been approved by the President. Some for just this reason, loading over the berm, others are shooting steel twice, holsters, bullet designs and I'm sure more will come up. At what point does USPSA decide that the club hosting the USPSA match, but won't allow competitors to move with a loaded gun in hand is not really hosting USPSA matches. One of the fundamental reasons USPSA was created was to help codify the patchwork of different rules each match ran under. Speaking as someone who shoots at a lot of different clubs in a lot of different states it's nice to learn one rule book, not 50. I can tell you I would be less than pleased if I went to the Area 6 match(used because I know they would never do this) and get DQ'd because I reloaded with my muzzle pointed over the berm. As to the concern about rounds leaving the range reloading with the muzzle over the berm. There are already rules that cover this making it a DQ. I would point to these when discussing with the host club how safe USPSA already is. As to the comment about SC's not having any authority. That is really a disappointing statement to hear anyone involved with USPSA make. Maybe it's just my experience with the Section I've been in but the SC's have always had a big role in how the matches in their section run. They are on the front line to make sure the rules are followed. When I was SC I never needed to go further than the suggestion to change something because it wasn't allowed in the rules. As AD I've had a number of SC's contact me about local issues not being run by the book. Even those were simple enough to deal with. That said if I did come upon a group not following the rules, that didn't respond to every other attempt to fix the issues to be in accordance with the rules, the only option I have is to pull the sanction from the match. Run whatever you want, but if it doesn't follow the USPSA rule book, it's not USPSA. There is the chance we may lose a club or even more than one, and along with that we may use some of the members that only have that club to shoot at. It's unfortunate, but I think we'd lose more if we went to a patchwork of rules with no consistency from club to club.

My boss has a saying, you can do whatever you want, just be willing to face the consequences. If I show up at an IDPA match I intend to follow most of the rules. When I shoot IDPA it's for practice for something else. There are certain rules in IDPA that drive me nuts, stuff we try to pound out of our students on the range (i.e. retaining empty magazines, running to cover with an empty gun rather than loading it while moving, etc.) I try to put myself in, "game mode" when I shoot competition, but it's harder with IDPA since there is the facade of being more "tactical". I try to retain my empty mags, I try to run up to 4 feet from the target, then reload. However there are times when that training kicks in and that empty mag hits the deck. I'll take my penalty. I understand it and I'm not about to complain about it. It's the rules. That said if someone is deliberately violating the rules, cover as the OP mentioned, PE, FTDR, DQ. It's not fair to the other competitors to have some shooters follow the rules and others not. And since it seems to be a requirement, yes I am an IDPA member. Started in 1996, let it lapse when the local clubs shut down and I couldn't find a range within 4 hours to shoot IDPA at. Re-upped a couple years ago.

Any idea if food will be available on the range on Thursday during the RO shoot?

For duty I'd go with Noveske. For competition JP. Both would make fine rifles either way. I'm not real fond of the rail systems Noveske uses for competition, but they'd be fine for duty. Noveske started out oriented to the tactical market and their offerings still show this slant. JP has been involved with competition for years and years and I have yet to see a better competition rifle at any price. Some equal, but nothing to make me want to give up my current gun. Either way you'll get a good gun.

A competition rifle is designed to work 100% when properly maintained and deliver accuracy, and follow up shots to the utmost degree. A combat weapon has to function 100%...period. Tolerances will likely be looser, adjustable gas systems (unless needed for suppressed use) go away, 1.5 pound triggers, compensators and long barrels all give way in favor of guns that won't deliver same accuracy level as a competition rifle, but will run 100%. Combat arms, in base form will be lighter, but may end up the same or heavier by the time lights, lasers and NVD's or thermal optics are added. As an example, Competition Rifle JP CTR-02, 18" mid weight barrel, adjustable gas, Cooley comp, Leupold 1.5-5 MR/T Scope and Delta Point, 1.5 lb JP trigger Work Rifle Larue Stealth upper, 12.5" barrel, std gas, SureFire MR556AR Suppressor, Surefire M320 light, Aimpoint M4, 6lb trigger.

Ouch Doug, now my feeling is hurt.

Last year I experemented with a Gunslinger and heavy metal. I tried about every combination I could think of, both long guns in the back by themselves, one in the scabbard, 2 gunsocks, the scabbard on the side, and 2 scabbards, I even tried making a Plywood liner. Here are my thoughts: If you are running relatively smooth guns, say a M1A and a pump shotgun without a hard sidesaddle, you will be happiest. Protrusions are the enemy and the more Pistol Grips, cocking handles, side saddles, bumpy scope mounts and exposed sights you run, the less you will like the gunslinger. If you are running anything longer than an M4 or a 20" shotgun, you will want to fold out the bottom pocket to let the guns sit lower, but this makes the pack a pain to pick up and put down, as well as to get anything out of [including your long guns]. If it is wet out at all, you will hate this pack unless your range has covered benches. You might as well find a mud hole and waller in it to start, because that's what you will look like afterward. If it's dry, substitute the word dust for mud.. If you run any rubber ir stipples or grip tape on your guns you will cuss getting the guns out. If you use chamberflags in the pack, you will hate the pack, or learn to unflag as you insert, and re-flag as you remove. If you have enough mags and ammo and stuff in the pack for a full day at a match, there is no easy way to get the long guns out, unless you roll it straps up. AND that much stuff tends to severley pressurize your hydration bladder for some spectacular results... Bottom line, I think the gunslinger is a really cool pack, but the only way I made it useable for me was build a 1/4" plywood liner for the gun compartment, that had an L shaped foot, and 2 tent poles hanging from the top that allowed the pack to stand up by it's self [think golf bag]. I used a plywood divider to keep the guns apart, and that setup worked fairly well except it made for a pretty heavy pack, and at the second match, I steped in a hole, fell and broke the plywood. At that point, I took my contraption out, and sold the pack. As far as the OP's original question, the first link you list isn't a bad pack. It's worth it to take it down to your local leather or shoe shop and have them overstitch the shoulder strap attachment points but otherwise, it is small enough to make it difficult to put too much ammo and stuff in it to tear it up. As long as you arent rocking Trooper class, it should be good to go. The better packs are better, but think of the economics this way, if you plan to spend $50 a year on packs, you either can buy a new $50 pack every year, or spend, say $200 and make the pack last 4 years. The difference is, with the cheap stuff, you have a new pack every year, and spend more aggregate time with a "new" pack in that same 4 year period. I have about all the stuff you say will make me hate the pack. I love it. I've run it with a tube fed 21-24" SG in the scabbard or my Saiga with a left side charge handle and a Arredondo shell stop. For my rifle I run either a RAMP mount or Dueck Defense sights. Chamber flags occasionally. Never had any issues. What I like is the pack is sturdy enough it's gone through TSA several times as a stand alone bag. No issues. Makes it a lot easier, and cheaper than trying to pack my 3Gun gear into another suitcase.

How much stuff do you haul? I used my GSII for the last two Ironman matches in Trooper class and did fine.

It's got a stock charging handle and triggerguard. I was actually bit surprised they didn't put a Magpul MOE Triggerguard on it since it has so much other Magpul stuff on it. Both are easy to change at the user level, but I've seen more than one receiver screwed up by someone swapping triggerguards without skill.

Dates for the Steel Challenge, 2012 have been announced. November 1-4, 2012, Frostproof, FL.

No worries. The Steel Challenge dates have been released, Nov 1-4, 2012, Frostproof, FL.