Chuck Anderson

I shot Atlanta Arms 9 major at Nationals this year. It's .355 Super. Might not be making it any more but they did at one point.

Not exactly. The Host club is planning to implement that rule. If they want it to apply to USPSA, they will no longer be a USPSA venue.

Yep, we hit 350 a couple days ago. Pretty sure it's gonna be waitlist for some unhappy folks. My thought on the raffle was to open it up to everyone but I was out voted and we're keeping it to just the folks at the match. You don't have to be present to win, but you have to buy your tickets at the match. The down side is not everyone gets to play. The upside is the folks going will have an great chance at a terrific prize package.

Eric who? He's not related to that Kort Mueller dude is he?

I think part of the confusion stems from the way we play the name game with USPSA. USPSA is the US representative of IPSC. USPSA is also a different sport from IPSC. We have a separate rule book, USPSA discipline matches don't count as far as IPSC is concerned. We use the term USPSA for two different purposes. One as the umbrella org and one as a specific Discipline. The umbrella org can recognize different disciplines, such as Steel Challenge without running afoul of the founding principles because it doesn't affect USPSA the discipline. USPSA the org would be the entity that would approve of and run IPSC matches, including IPSC Airsoft if it came to that. USPSA the discipline would not. USPSA the Org could certainly entertain a .22 Rimfire Discipline. USPSA the discipline could not. Is everyone confused now? Or is it just me?

I could always use CROs, certainly one as qualified as you. Last time I talked to Ken he was looking for one or two more CROs. His email is Ken@kennelson.com if you want to go direct with him.

It doesn't matter GM or not. I've met more D class shooters who would adamantly defend the founding principles than GM's. Rather than agreeing to disagree, why not turn this thread into something useful. USPSA is in a position to be a governing body for more than just USPSA competition. We actually have multiple disciplines we administer, USPSA, IPSC (and yes Mike, they are different) Steel Challenge and what really is a separate sport, USPSA Multigun. Using the umbrella of USPSA, what would a .22 Discipline, NOT Division look like. How would it be administered, what should it entail. .22 and Centerfire don't mix well on USPSA stages. Why not try and come up with something that does. No guarantees and this is just a pure brainstorming exercise.

But it is broke....... sorta. A whole lot of people still thing that to shoot practical pistol you have to have a $2500 gun to start. Plus there are a lot of folks that just can't come up with the cost of ammo. I suggest that the matches be scored and run as production division. Minimum power factor, ten rounds in the mags. And no a 22 will not knock over a popper. So if there is a stage that required a popper to be knocked over to activate another target something else would have to be done to, say, start a swinger. Let's get something started for everybody. Not just those that can afford $50 for ammo to shoot a match. The streets aren't getting any friendlier. Hi Ray, The fact that "some" people still think you have to have a 2500 dollar gun to shoot USPSA, despite Production Division, Sinle Stack Division, L-10 Division and Revolver Division falls into the area of "you just can't fix stupid". My opinion only, your mileage may vary. Gary I agree with you Gary. You can't fix stupid. But how about trying to fix the folks that can't afford 150 rounds of center fire ammo? "If they have no bread let them eat cake" Antichrome I don't suggest an equipment race. My suggestion was to run a rim fire division with the same parameters as production. 10 rounds, stock guns, no mag wells, comps, or gee haw whimmy diddles. USPSA does have a .22 Division. It's just under Steel Challenge. For those that can't afford 150 rounds of centerfire ammo, I suggest that. Trying to water down the stages so they can be shot with .22's for the remaining membership is not a valid option. Aside from the logistics of trying to work out all the issues .22's have with courses designed for real USPSA shooters, there is the simple fact that it goes against the founding principles of the sport. Principles that many people still believe in. Granted we may gain a few shooters who want to shoot their .22's because they can save a few bucks shooting Federal bulk pack instead of 9mm. But I know we'd also lose some that would be completely disgusted that a sport designed around the defensive use of handguns degenerated to the point people were shooting the courses with .22's.

Not sure, but If my Safariland numbering fu is up to snuff it's just a different belt attachment.

Must be regional then because the last steel match I shot it was the opposite. Maybe two center fire entries and 60 ish rim fire.

Normally I shoot a revolver but this time I thought I would use my HK for a change of pace. As I stepped into the box, followed commands and got ready to put my HK to work that thought mentioned earlier popped into my head. Now you folks are telling me its alright to have the the finger in the trigger well and pull the trigger with one hand while at the same time lower the hammer. Are you kidding me. This action doesn't scream unsafe handling and accident waiting to happen to you folks as it does to me. Whatever happened to keeping the finger out of the trigger well at all times except when engaging the target. Are you folks saying this is a safe way to handle a loaded weapon? Clearly the sport of USPSA frightens you. Please go find something else. This is an established method of lowering the hammer on DA guns and has been used for close to a 100 years. (how do you think people load a Walther PPK?). It's clearly defined in the rulebook and clearly defined by NROI rulings. If you truly find USPSA a bad as it seems you do by the posts there are lots of other sports, like Bullseye that might fit your definition of a safe sport. This one fits mine just fine. And in answer to your question, no it doesn't scream unsafe gun handling to me. It screams, it's the only way to load the gun and put it in a ready condition. Whether you're in competition or for carry. How do you prepare your HK at home? Do you carry with the chamber empty and just run the slide when a bad situation occurs, then walk around with a cocked and off safe gun? Or do you lower the hammer like everyone has described and you just want to troll for responses.

Safariland 5197

You've never seen active duty Military shoot? What about the AMU? See them shoot all the time. That said Ive always got a laugh out of the LE and militray categories. The other 4 have to do with competitive disadvantages. Smaller size, age something that makes it more difficult to compete for the top spot. What is LEs disadvantage, they're too full of donuts?

Would you support USPSA Airsoft for the same reasons? It's cheap, recoil is down, guns aren't initimidating. We can make all sorts of changes, but at some point it's not USPSA anymore. .22 is that point. No movement, no draw, no reloads, no centerfire guns. All are other things that would make the sport easier for some people to be involved in, but they're all things that would make the sport something else. It always amazes me when someone with so little experience in a sport has "the answer". When someone can state that since their view is X that everyones must be X. I shoot with an older couple, Tom and Shirley Angell, both are wellllll past retirement age. They both shoot Limited and are very frequently out practicing. Certainly more than I practice. I've never once heard Shirley complain...well about anything, but certainly not about having to shoot a centerfire gun. She did recently start shooting more .22 but it's because she enjoys it. Now I would certainly never say that all Senior shooters, or all women shooters are the same as Shirley. (I wish they were, her and her husband are great to shoot with) There are several different ways that have been proposed to have an action competition with .22's. Steel Challenge, set up a match, side match. Heck if you think the market is there, run a separate, non-USPSA match after the club match. Let everyone go through again with .22's. You can pull a few steel targets if you want and have fun. But it's not USPSA.

We have .22 in Steel Challenge. It's a terrific sport that whole families can participate in. What is it you want? You spend a lot of time complaining about what USPSA is. How can we fix it to suit you. And I say that only partly smart ass. USPSA is never going to be everything to everyone, but if you've got a valid idea, let's hear it? I know you haven't been involved with USPSA very long. Some ideas have been tried and failed, or based on experience we know just won't work. Or they go against the fundamental principles the organiazation was founded on. If you've got something though, let's hear it. A .22 Division in a normal USPSA match will not work, both because it is completely against what USPSA was founded upon, but also making stages work for Major and minor PF is difficult enough. Trying to add in .22 guns will dilute the stage designers ability to put stages together that would only work for guns with a certain PF.

Let us not forget our beloved Texas star... Hell, the plates won't fall when we hit them with a .45 sometimes The items pointed out in support of not adding a 22 rim fire division are not insurmountable. In fact it's really an excuse to not consider a 22 rim fire. Because it goes against one of the founding principles of the sport. Power. Having .22 and Action Air in USPSA/IPSC would likely cause the founders to kick us out of the sport. That said, USPSA is working towards being the Umbrella under which all the action shooting sports are run under. USPSA, no. Steel Challenge, absolutely. If someone wants to start an org to run .22 rimfire and Action Air events, fine, but it's not USPSA as we know it. It would have to be another sport.

Which, unless we add new members just means we split up the existing 6 Divsions and turn it into 7 Divisions. Several have posted the reasons why adding Divisions just waters down the competition. I just don't see what it would add, other than another National Champion. Have you noticed that you are the only one proposing Prod-10 and Prod-Unl (I'm guessing the unlimited since you haven't specified any other round count) I'm guessing you want a Division for the SP-01, XDM and Grand Power to be able to run their 19+ round magazines? Because those would be the clearly dominant guns. You would be guessing wrong. I just "suggested" Prod -10. It seemed like a an easy compromise for all. Just because there are not additional posters in this thread agreeing, does not make it a bad suggestion. I don't see a lot of posters coming up with real reasons why it would be bad either. It would be interesting if everyone just asked all those production shooters at local matches a simple question. Which would you rather do, Shoot this match with 10 rounds per mag or 15 rounds per mag" . I picked 15 because 15 is the figure most mentioned. Okay, clearly I'm not understading your suggestion of Prod-10 and Production. Please explain what you are talking about. The way I've read your posts it appears that you want to create two Divisions where there is currently one. Prod-10, which would be what the current Division is, and a new Division Production which would allow...what. I can't follow your posts. Are you looking for Prod-15 or Prod Unl Capacity. We have Prod -10 now. Not seeing how that is a suggestion of anything new. It's what we have. By the last post it looks like your looking at Prod 15. I don't see a need to for two identical divisions, separated by 5 rounds of capacity. As to the comment about Limited, it's a direct parallel to what you're looking to do in Production. Limited has a capacity limit, albeit one measured by length of magazine, not number of rounds. Those looking for an increase to 15 are asking to increase that arbitrary capacity limit in Production to another arbitrary capacity limit. The same as taking the arbitrary capacity limit in Limited of 141.25 to another arbitrary limit of 161.25. As far as the handful of folks, yes, there are only a handful of people in this thread. Of the 20K members of USPSA, only a fraction are on Enos, only a fraction are on this thread and only a fraction agree that any change should be made to Production. Believe it or not, I do actually talk to people at matches. Part of the whole AD gig. I also have a lot of them, from my area and around the country email or call me with questions, requests, suggestions, angry demands, etc. Additionally I've shot Production since 2005, pretty much exclusively, and all around the country. I've had maybe, maybe two people ask me to change the limit to 15 outside of the Enos Forum. None of the new shooters I've brought into the sport have ever complained about the 10 round limit. Not one.

Just a quick note to the folks who haven't signed up yet, particularly the Area 1 shooters. The cutoff for guaranteed acceptance for Area 1 members is December 15. I received an email from the MD tonight and he has 300 registered, with another 15 or so likely tomorrow based on email and other conversations. There is a good chance this match is going to max out either on Dec 15 or very shortly thereafter. If you want to go, get you app done....now. We'll have lots of great shooting, both in the match and several side events, great weather and scenery and a chance at the best prize gun I've seen in a long time. Cameron Custom has agreed to build us a complete open gun. Schuemann, Cameron Custom and Brownells are donating the parts. Scott at Springer Precision has agreed to have the gun finished in Ion Bond. Safariland has donated a complete rig, belt, 013 Holster and mag pouches to go with the gun. Like I said, best prize I've seen at a match in a very long time. The gun will be awarded to the high Area 1 Director I'm just kidding, I'd have to be high to think I could get away with that one. We will be selling raffle tickets for the package. All the proceeds of raffle will go towards the MGM Junior Camp. I've got lots more surprises planned, but you'll have to get into the match before you can be a part. Times running out.

To those that are arguing for 15 round magazines. What advantage is there to add another arbitrary number that will effect existing members. Is there a clamor to increase th magazine size in Limited to 161.25mm? This is basically the same thing. Some folks will have to buy new gear to stay, "competetive" Production is meant to be as equipment neutral of a Division as possible. Yeah the horse left the barn and there are a bunch of things allowed that if I was king of USPSA I'd say no to. But I'm not about to cause a bunch of people to have to go out and buy new gear just because a handful of people want to be able to load their magazines up a little bit more, not even full, just a little bit more.

Which, unless we add new members just means we split up the existing 6 Divsions and turn it into 7 Divisions. Several have posted the reasons why adding Divisions just waters down the competition. I just don't see what it would add, other than another National Champion. Have you noticed that you are the only one proposing Prod-10 and Prod-Unl (I'm guessing the unlimited since you haven't specified any other round count) I'm guessing you want a Division for the SP-01, XDM and Grand Power to be able to run their 19+ round magazines? Because those would be the clearly dominant guns.

Not understanding this. Are you suggesting Production be opened to the capacity of the gun? Most people suggesting change have at least realized that even IPSC had to limit it to 15 to deal with the equipment race their Division became. My opinion is that there is no gain changing it from a 10 round division. Lots of people have invested in equipment that works with a 10 round limit. Why make them change? What benefit is there? Other than having new folks not need to buy a couple magazines? Really? As far as the reference Jim made to Glock matches. GSSF has about 80,000 members. Their Annual Glock shoot at Conyers this year had over 1000 entries. The guns used, with a few exceptions are all Production Legal and the vast majority would be pretty darn competetive with a 10 round limit, which BTW, GSSF has. I use GSSF as a way to get new folks, nervous about USPSA or even Steel to come out and start shooting competition. If Steel Challenge is the gateway drug to USPSA I look at GSSF as the gateway to both. I would very much like to have a Division that the 80K GSSF members, and even those IDPA folks, could come shoot easily. Chad, you likely won't get a valid answer to your question about this years Nationals, or for that matter any Nationals. The data captured isn't specific enough to identify the number of guns that wouldn't have a 15 round capacity. Might show caliber and model, but that data isn't captured together.

That only works for competitions in state. What happens when the CA resident decides to shoot his Area match in AZ or Nats in Vegas?

Well you know USPSA is all about compromise. You can have the Tiny Bikini Division but we decided to combine it with Mark's to get participation up. Now it's the old, fat, bald, beared tiny bikini division.

The problem is many people worked very hard to get the AWB removed, It was one of the few victories that gun owners got. I see it as nothing more than spitting in the face of the gun lobby by keeping the same arbitrary restriction. Done, I'll propose we reduce the capacity in Production to 9 rounds at the very next BOD meeting. That way it's not the evil number 10 and we don't lose any guns. Happy?

Because, in case you haven't been to a Nationals lately, a lot of our members, in particular RO's, are freaking old (Yes I'm calling you out Carraher!) Members come, they leave. Some stay for a couple matches, some stay a lifetime. But unless we're continually bringing in new members we're going to fade away. Look at NRA Action Pistol and the Bianchi Cup and tell me they don't need more members.