Chuck Anderson

Travis, you can enter with multiple guns at the NW Regional Steel Challenge, .22lr, open, limited, revo...heck it could be a 5 or 6 gun match. We now return this thread back to the Inland Empire and will try to stop stealing competitors for the SC.

The regional directors will have a meeting at the World Shoot in Bali this year. At that meeting regions can present proposals to host the World Shoot. The RD's vote on the proposals and that is where it is held. Some years there are only one or two regions that request the opportunity to host the WS. Sometimes there are more. Until this years WS there is no way to tell where it will be held. If USSA (please, please, please) throws their hat in the ring to host it that doesn't necessarily guarantee we will get it. Also as a quick side note. The regions bid to hold the events, not the specific ranges. That range can be part of the proposal, but it's the US requesting the WS, not USSA.

Shouldn't be a problem. The stages will be posted a little ahead of time so you can get a better idea of what you'll need ammo wise. The flavor of MG Nats really depends on who is putting the match on and what facilities they have. It's kind of different than most of the big three gun matches that are held in the same spot every year. You really know just what to expect with those. Best advice, make sure you three guns work. Make sure the SG works with all the ammo you're bringing, know your rifle zero out to 400 yds, and if you're going to shoot a minor pistol, get some 140mm mags for it if you can. I used to shoot my G17 with 23 round mags, worked great. Other than that just go and have fun. If you're not in the running for National Champion, what stress should there be? Shoot it like you would any other match and don't let the fact that it is a Nationals even bother you.

I quit using my foot when my knee started hurting for a month after each door kicked in. But I don't have super Fireman power.

I bought two P3AT's a couple years ago when they first came out. One gun came from the factory with the mag release screwed up and wouldn't hold the mag in the gun. The other lasted about 50 rounds. Worked great for those 50 rounds though. The first one has had the mag release fixed but hasn't been shot. The second is sitting in a bag of parts on my desk because I haven't got around to putting it back together for 1 1/2 years. They're not the most intuitive guns to detail strip.

so the start was not the same for everyone and on the ground does not seem to satisfy the condition "in one or both hands" which implies (to me) that the ram is off the ground and in control of the shooter. The start was as I wrote above. If you wanted to hold it in one hand you could. If you wanted to use two hands you could. There was nothing that said you had to hold it off the ground or above your head or what not. It allowed the shooter to solve the problem, just like many other legal start positions.

Start was standing outside box A with ram in one or both hands. Gun was on table inside shooting area. The smart play for the folks who didn't want to swing was just like Nancy Marrs did. Start with the ram on the ground standing up with one hand on it. That was why we set up the start position that way.

Do the stage numbers correspond to the stage descriptions posted on the website? What happened to Taran on Stage 10?

No problem Gary. I could never get, let alone stay mad at you anyway. You were there and I would never have a problem with you voicing an opinion on how you felt. Oh, and by the way I think I figured out a way to squeeze 60 yds to shoot at poppers on some of the bays at TCGC. Can't wait to try it.

The stage was approved by Amidon and NROI as a Level III match. The weight of the door/ram was not listed on the stage description. We had a lot of conversations with the MD, RM, AD and other match staff as to what to do with the door. There was also a thread here on the forum months ago I started about how to assess penalties, which is where we came up with the two procedurals. There was a heck of a lot of thought put into this before we did it. As far as the shooter that chewed me out at that match, I don't really care. To be perfectly honest, I lost a ton of respect for her over this. She and a couple other ladies decided before they even got there that it was an impossible task. I know that they tried to convince several other shooters, including a junior, that it couldn't be done and to just bypass it. Then instead of arbitrating the stage they just started a rumor that it was going to get thrown out. It might have if they had arbitrated it. Although I doubt it. Gary, I know you say you tried the ram and decided there was no way you could do it. That is fine and that is your decision. I know Tyler Roberts did just fine and he is smaller than you in height and weight. We look at every stage in the section before a match and Fish proof it. Every time we say, can Gary see through this port etc. I looked at that stage and Tyler proofed it. I figured if he could do it we were good. He was the smallest person registered in the match by far. The reason that we didn't use a smaller ram is because there is no way to know what would happen with a smaller ram. The door is designed and tested by the company. The ram is designed and tested by the company. If I throw a sledgehammer out there, I don't know how it will last or what effect it will have on the door. As far as using pencils or dowels, same thing. I'm not going to hit the door 300 times to make sure that it opens consistently with dowels, or pencils or whatever. The pins were designed to work in the door and were a consistent challenge for everyone. Clearly there were people who didn't like the door. We won't use it again for an Area match or even a USPSA match. I give.

A check of the classification database should give you a real good idea at which clubs he's shooting at. At least those that submit classifiers.

Yep, there are procedures in place to suspend or ban folks from USPSA. We just dealt with letting someone back into our section from 8 years ago. The SC, AD or USPSA can make the decision depending on available information or severity. I gotta say that is a new one to me. The last thing I heard someone getting suspended for was throwing their unloaded gun at the berm. That sounds like it falls at least into the same if not worse level of offense.

I think the discussion is that is should represent a shooting challenge. 1.1.8 Scenarios and Stage Props — The use of scenarios and reasonable stage props is encouraged. Care must be exercised, however, to avoid unrealistic non-shooting requirements which detract from the shooting challenge and/or may expose competitors to potentially unsafe conditions. I can see both sides of this. And, I like distractions from the shooting (funky props and scenarios). After reading the feedback, however, I don't think I'd put this particular prop into a (normal) USPSA match...hindsight being 20/20. It was a neat idea. Pretty cool. But, being new/different (big thing), and being heavy, and it needing to be "man-handled"...it was certain to cause controversy. I have always wanted to see a more robust/physical match. Maybe something with special billing as being physical? I disagree with you on this one. You're hearing a bunch of complaining, but it's all from people who weren't there. I haven't seen anyone on this thread that actually picked the thing up complain. Kevin is the closest, and I don't think he's quite there yet. If a prop is light enough that a 12 year old kid who weighs 80 pounds can use it, I don't really know how much more watered down you want to go. The point of the prop wasn't to just knock the door down. It was to get the shooter amped up before shooting the stage. Add a little bit of stress. In my mind that is as much a shooting challenge as putting a brick in a mailbox, or pulling your gun out of a BBQ. I doubt we'll be using this for another USPSA match, only becuase my agency purchased the door to use for our own training. It will most likely be making an appearance in two matches next year. An NRA LE 3Gun and a charity match that is geared in part towards LE.

Uh...dude, I'm pretty sure the fact that it's a machine gun puts it in the NFA realm. The shooter was using a Glock 18 with a VFG. The VFG came loose and since the shooter was pushing forward with his left hand it went in front of the muzzle. You can actually see the VFG lying on the ground at the end of the video. This is why I'm not putting a VFG on my 18 until I get it suppressed.

Wow, I'm glad somebody finally pointed this thread out to me. I was the stage designer and I have had a chance to use this door previously at other matches. I did give quite a bit of consideration to younger, older, smaller etc shooters. That is why the 2 procedurals were put on. It worked out to about 3 seconds for most folks hit factor wise. It took most folks 1 1/2 to 2 seconds to breach the door. This didn't end up being that much of a penalty on a 160 point field course. For the people that think the ram was too heavy, go tell that to Tyler Roberts. A 12 year old junior shooter, who if he weighs 80 pounds I'd be surprised, made it through on the second hit. Granted there are going to be some folks who can't complete the task. I can tell you for most of them it was becasue of a lack of trying, not a lack of physical ability. There were some people, Super Senior Ladies who didn't try, no problem, I doubt it affected their scores much. But I also saw and heard from the RO's on that stage that there were a couple shooters who had it set in their minds that they weren't going to succeed before they got there, gave it a half a$$ed try and complained when they didn't make it through. If you tell yourself you can't do something you're probably right. I'm not sure where the people that went to Kevin stage griping were. We asked at the awards ceremony. There were a very small handful of people that didn't look to happy about the prop. Everyone else seemed like they enjoyed it. I guess I like matches and stages where there is an aspect of challenge to them. 50 yd standards, 40 yd shots on poppers. It's an Area Match. It should present a challenge. As far as the physical aspects of USPSA. It's a physical sport. There's running, and jumping, and it's not easy getting my big butt moving, or stopped. I don't particularly like Cooper Tunnels or low ports because of my size. I've never once complained about them though. It's part of the game. With this stage you had the option. If you wanted to play with the ram, you could. If you didn't want to it might cost you a complete second on the stage. But you'd probably also shoot better.

I think there are two issues in this. One if we allow 9mm Major in Limited and two if we institute a mag capacity limit. I've heard a couple folks suggest limiting 9mm to 20 rounds in the mag. That this would do away with the equipment race. I agree with this statement. It would do away with the equipment race. I personally don't view that as a good thing in Limited/Open. As far as the recoil management of the 9mm Major. Is there anyone who doesn't think the .40 recoils more/snappier/worse than a .45? The same argument was made about the .40. I think everyone knows how that one turned out.

Nothing wrong with the scoring now, if your shootong maj or minor and have too may dropped points, your out of it no matter how fast you shoot the course. The winners are shooting faster than everyone else and dropping the fewest points. I don't care about 9 or 40 either, shoot 165 PF major, less minor. Granted at the top of the heap of a big match you have to shot both fast and accurate to win (assuming everyone is shooting major), but I still think speed is rewarded more. If you want some numbers to look at, take a look a recent Area 1 match results in Open and Limited. TT dropped more points, but shot considerably faster and won most of the stages. In Open, stage winners dropped more points but shot faster. I think the story is the same as you work down the list in class levels, but it only spreads out the placement more. The only shot worth making up is a miss, luckily for me I miss fast. Without drifting the thread too much. That logic doesn't hold up because you see the same thing happened in Production with Minor scoring. Any time you use Hit factor scoring regardless of the point value, at some point decent hits with a smoking time are always going to beat perfect hits you could time on a sundial.

And you again want to piss off the new old salts by letting Major 9 into limited to be the "gamer's choice"?

I'm going to say guess that there are a large number of USPSA members that would not like to see the sport evolve into a PC .22 lr event. Whether 9mm would be cheaper or not in Limited really goes against the founding principles of the sport. I think allowing the smaller caliber in is a bad idea. I think putting a cap on magazine capacity in Limited or Open is a bad idea. We're already limited to a specific capacity in 2/3 of the Divisions. You say this would be for new shooters. How easy is it to expalin to new shooters that they can shoot a 9mm in major in Limited, but they have to load it so that it is unsafe in that stock Glock 17 they just bought because the rules say 9mm can make major. I just think this is a really bad idea. My $.02

Atlanta Arms and Ammo. .355 Super It's a 9mmx19mm major load. I'm sorry but economic crisis or not I really have a hard time believing that rechambering your gun for 9 Major, and not reusing your brass is going to be more economical than leaving it as is and shooting .40 brass a whole bunch. You're going to have to do a whole lot of shooting before you recoup the investment from the changeover. If you really want to shoot 9mm, shoot Production or shoot Limited Minor.

I really doubt the BOD would approve another caliber but limit the number of rounds in the magazine. Kind of goes against the principles of the division.

You're kinda skinny Mitch, don't use too many or you might end up in Wyoming.

Yep they have. Neither are considered true SAO guns. Both have safety devices. M&P trigger safety. XD Grip safety (and is there something in the trigger on that one too?) They're considered DAO guns, just like Glock. There is no point in trying to change that now. To do so would seriously ruin the division and the great relationships with manufacturers that have come about as a result of the Division.

Let everybody know about the situation. What little advantage he thinks he is getting is definitely not worth a DQ. He has been apprised of the rule. He knows he's going to get DQ'd the next time he gets caught. This is not anything sneaky. He's been warned numerous times and is still intentionally doing it. To me that's unsportsmanlike. I'll argue it before an arb committe if need be, but I'm guessing he's not getting back in the match.

That decision did include input from the CZ factory rep. The trigger pull on the CZ from the half cock position is not the same as from the fully decocked position, it is substantially shorter. There are many gun designs that include stop gaps or partially decocked positions. To try and include them all would be a huge mess. Just decock the gun the way it specifies in the rule book and you will be fine. As far as the DQ, I'm actually getting close to doing it to one shooter. He knows the rule and every time tries to start with the hammer at half cock. Sometimes the RO catches him and they have to decock all over again. Other times he doesn't. At this point I think he is deliberately trying to gain a competetive advantage by knowingly cheating. He's been warned the next time I catch him I'll DQ him for Unsportsmanlike Conduct. If it's a one or two time thing, no problem, but deliberately contravening the rules for going on six months. I think a DQ is warranted.