Shoot Houses

[Tree Rat]

Yes sir......maybe even using flip cards to determine what that color is......

Shooter Ready?.....Beep......Flip card....see RED.....GO....DON'T shoot RED.

or maybe they'll go light and just designate color before you load and make ready.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Using colors to designate non threats is against the rules. For a sanctioned match that is not a very good thing to do.

Ted

E. Threat / Non-Threat Designation.

Threat targets may be designated by the painting of a gun or clipping the cutout of a gun on the target. This target designation is not mandatory, but is highly recommended. In no case should a gun and an open hand be positioned on the same target. Targets should be clearly designated as threat or non-threat.

Non-threat targets MUST be designated by the painting of an open hand or hands on the target or, in the case of a target with a shirt on it, clipping a cutout of an open hand or hands.

On a shoot through of a non-threat target that also strikes a threat target, the contestant will get the penalty for the non-threat target hit AND will get credit for the scored hit on the threat target. The reverse also applies when a round on a threat target penetrates a non-threat behind it. Hence the rule of thumb: all shoot throughs count (except on hard cover).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG....better go advise the Match Director.

TR

[Crusher]

What Ted said (and he said it very well).

It boils down to angles and distances of both threat and non threat target placements. Changing the placement of non-threat targets in an aray can (and often does) allow for faster pick up of threat targets if a certain combination(s) is/are made. This in turn can (an often does) allow for faster transitions (target to target) for some combinations of target placement thereby allowing for faster run times with those combinations.

[geezer-lock]

Using colors to designate non threats is against the rules.  For a sanctioned match that is not a very good thing to do. 

[/b]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stage 9 of the recent Fiesta Regional match (shot under the new rulebook and fully sanctioned) was a “choose your allies” stage where the color drawn designated the no-shoots. This was not a scenario stage but a skills stage, 18 rounds limited, shot on the move, backwards, and head shots were counted as a miss.

There was some bitching because it was difficult to distinguish some of the dark colors. I drew the white chip so 20+ years of USPSA kicked in and I finished about 21st overall on that stage. I really don’t like random drawings, playing cards, moving hands, shouted instructions, surprise starts or any other B.S. where the stage is not exactly the same for everyone.

geezer

[Ted Murphy]

Stage 9 of the recent Fiesta Regional match (shot under the new rulebook and fully sanctioned) was a “choose your allies” stage where the color drawn designated the no-shoots. This was not a scenario stage but a skills stage, 18 rounds limited, shot on the move, backwards, and head shots were counted as a miss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that does not make it right. The rules are still the rules. And they say to use hands to designate non threat targets.

You cannot say that just because a sanctioned match permitted the rules to be broken is justification for doing it again.

Ted

[geezer-lock]

Stage 9 of the recent Fiesta Regional match (shot under the new rulebook and fully sanctioned) was a “choose your allies” stage where the color drawn designated the no-shoots. This was not a scenario stage but a skills stage, 18 rounds limited, shot on the move, backwards, and head shots were counted as a miss.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well that does not make it right. The rules are still the rules. And they say to use hands to designate non threat targets.

You cannot say that just because a sanctioned match permitted the rules to be broken is justification for doing it again.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The match was "fully sanctioned" per the new rulebook:

10. All CoF will be sent to the AC along with the sanction form

and sanction fee. The CoF must be approved and sanction

form with sanction fee sent to HQ by AC at least sixty (60)

days before match date.

Sanctioned Match: A major match approved by the AC or HQ.

Sanctioned matches are listed in each issue of the Tactical Journal and are listed on the IDPA website under “Upcoming Major Matches”.

geezer

[Ted Murphy]

What's your point geezer?

I'm not doubting it was sanctioned.

However, hands are how you designate a non threat. The rulebook is crystal clear on the subject.

Just because the powers that be involved in sanctioning that match either did not notice that passage or decided to editorialize on the rulebook does not open the door for other people to follow suit.

Previous to the green book I ran many a stage like this. I've even argued for it when they changed the rules. But now that the rules have changed, I don't do them anymore.

I have done them where you picked a color and that was your "shoot" target. The other colored targets did not matter. If shooters engaged them, all that happened is they lost time and ammo in the process. That worked pretty well as there was a slight "time" penalty for shooting the target, plus the added bonus of a target rich enviroment for hoser minded people. That's probably iffy too, but I've only dont that at local matches.

Ted

[Crusher]

It would make "SENSE" NOT to have color used as a shoot/no-shoot designation. Unless of course you wish to "alienate" a portion of the shooters that attend IDPA matches AND that have "color blindness". I like leave that sort of decision making up to the MD/AC guys.

As for moving threat/non-threat target placement from shooter to shooter well you know my thoughts on that and the "logic" behind those thoughts. (hint: "It AIN'T the same for everyone")

[freeidaho]

Ya know,

This is the type of thing that could fall in the cracks when getting stages okayed by an AC.

Most COF descriptions do not specify what is going to be used to designate NTs. Unless the COF description was very specific, the AC could be blessing a stage he/she didn't understand was going to violate the rulebook.

The COF description probably doesn't say, "We are not using hands to designate NTs.)

Or maybe the AC did know, and decided to violate the rules anyway..... Yeah I know, it shouldn't be that way, but it has happened before.

Just a thought.

Either way, it is poor stage design, AND against the rules.

Ken Reed

[Steve Moneypenny]

Wow, I am totally amazed this man comments and no really good practice tips yet. Hopefully I can remedy that.

I have shot a lot in the mid-Ohio valley and quite a few ranges that already have blind stages set up, and we also routinely shoot stages with "supprises"

I have found the best way to train for this is to set up either small targets, or full size if u have a big house in your own house, and practice coming around the corner efficiently, notice "fast" or "slow" was not used. you can see very fast, fast enough to stop your body motion if you have your feet planted right as to not "expose" more than half of your body to the threat.

Many of the things I have seen on target identificatin stages include

Card suits.. a heart, spade, diamond. (in black or color,... pick a shape)

numbers 14, 35, 46

shapes, square, circle, triangle

Badge, knife, gun (strangely people put the gun sideways which isn't much of a threat unless you see the muzzle.

as for small cheat's look at the shooters expression many times they are a dead giveaway for supprises... also if you don't have amplified ear muffs GET THEM they let you hear the gavel beneath the shooters feet, if he isn't shooting. close your eyes you can concentrate on sound better. see if squatting from a distance can let you see under the barriers. to see target stands. Be CAREFUL this could be considered some kind of spirit of the game infraction, but if you aren't cheating you aren't trying hard enough. and don't do anything blatantly stupid.

But feel free to listen to others comments on the stage. I do this for all matches, and stages. sometimes a brand new shooter will have an idea that given a good shooters skill will put you ahead of the pack.

[Crusher]

Many of the things I have seen on target identificatin stages include

Card suits.. a heart, spade, diamond. (in black or color,... pick a shape)

numbers 14, 35, 46

shapes, square, circle, triangle

Steve none of the above identifiers are consider acceptable for "sanctioned" matches.

Them's the rules.

And while we did shift on some tangents in this thread, I think if you take it in it's entirety. The point is being made that you can't really train for a "blind stage" other than what you would do in normal range practice (ie. baracades/walls/doorways/windows) AND SCANNING ("Let your eyes do the walking").

In a blind stage the only disadvantage would be no walk through and therefore no chance to create a visual picture in your mind to work off of and prep for your "game plan".

[Jake Di Vita]

If it is a blind stage, it is downright unfair without a par time.

What really irks me is when they have movers that incur miss penalties on a blind stage. That is nothing more than a circus trick.

[geezer-lock]

Ted,

I’m sure I had a point but I have been a little dull lately.

Let me approach this another way. My original complaint is with CoF’s that present a variable challenge to each competitor. As it happens we are talking about a situation where the CoF is variable for each shooter and contrary to the rules. Since this was a “fully sanctioned” match that implies that the CoF was vetted at several levels and passed on. That does not grant permission for others to do the same thing but it does give it an official appearance and unfortunately we can’t do anything about it after the fact.

For what it is worth, I think that it is more likely that the approvals were done well in advance of the new rule book and not revisited. The guys in San Antonio put on a really great match. Just so that no one misunderstands, I said that I don’t LIKE these things, I didn’t say I they were wrong, illegal or even mean spirited. I pay my money and shoot the match no matter what they throw at me.

geezer

[NEPAKevin]

The Question:

How do I prepare to tackle these stages?

What are the quickest ways to finish these stages, but not get any PE's?

Any sorts of practice drills I should be doing?

We used to regularly do blind stages but they are time consuming to set up and break down and can easily bottle neck. That said, and this is mostly from watching other people as I usually was the one setting up the stage, they are not that different from any other stage.

Understand the course of fire. Procedurals often happen because some shooters seem to get in the habit of just doing what they watch other shooters do and not thinking for them selves and find them selves ill prepared when they have no other choice. Be sure you understand what the threat and non-threat indicators are. If you are not sure ask, don't assume.

When you identify a non-threat do not waste any more time on it, move on. The best way to shoot a non-threat is to be focused on them. If threat indicators are used, when you see one, remember to aim for the COM or Head. I used to put threat indicators in the down three so they wouldn't get shot up and still found myself making new ones on a regular basis.

Go only as fast as you can with out over looking targets. Don't just look for targets that are at normal standing height. Look for ones that are low or obstructed. But if you do go past one, don't get DQed or worse endanger anyone.

Just like any other stage, remember to relax, breathe, and shoot to the best of your ability. I would also recommend that you don't unload and show clear until instructed by the SO. If you are asked something to the effect "are you sure you are done?" it may be a hint that you are overlooking something. You don't win anything by being the fastest to show clear and it can really hurt if you have a target at the last position that needs to be shot.

FWIW, some first player shooter video games work a lot like a blind stage in regards to using blading to search areas.

HTH

Kevin

[Steve Moneypenny]

The point is being made that you can't really train for a "blind stage" other than what you would do in normal range practice

If you truely believe this then it is true for you. it is just one more aspect of the game, the more familiar your mind it's happenings the better chance you have of winning.

This is why we shoot small matches for practice, to run through stages. prepare for others. if we don't ever practice a blind stage then you aren't going to do too well in it.

[Tree Rat]

As it turns out....a slightly different method was used to designate the no shoots.

BLUE colored bandana's were the NO SHOOTS........sprinkled among white and red colored bandana marked SHOOT targets. Just silly and this latest go around reminds me how much I REALLY HATE shoot houses in IDPA.

Yeah I rocked it pretty bad....1 target missed and not engaged (with the associated FTN), and the sweetest center punch on a NO SHOOT you ever saw.

I agree with those that advocate the PAR time rule, but still don't like the course of fire. Has it's place in training though.

Ted.....good to me you and hope you enjoyed the weekend.

TR

[Ted Murphy]

Good to meet you too.

Ought to point out they never moved the NT indicators for the whole match, So everyone got the same challenge in that house. I found that out after the match ended on sunday.

Cool thing about that is they had the same fella run both the SO's and competitors through the shoot house, which makes it more consistent IMHO.

FWIW, PAR time is conspiciously absent from the new rulebook.

Ted

[Tree Rat]

Good to meet you too.

Ought to point out they never moved the NT indicators for the whole match,    So everyone got the same challenge in that house.  I found that out after the match ended on sunday.

Cool thing about that is they had the same fella run both  the SO's and competitors through the shoot house, which makes it more consistent IMHO.

FWIW, PAR time is conspiciously absent from the new rulebook.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good points. Not moving the indicators (essentially freezing the course of fire) was about as consistant has it gets (read fair). The expectation that the stage would be varied, but in the end was not, also mitigated guys coaching their buds after they shot the stage....another pitfall of shoot houses even with PAR time. Having the same experienced SO's on the stage the entire match added to the consistantcy.

PAR time....Gone. We talked about that allot in additional to the FTN rule that I allowed myself to get killed with for the match.

I still hate shoot houses for IDPA though..........

TR

[Ted Murphy]

I still hate shoot houses for IDPA though..........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too.

Ted

[Mayonaise]

I still hate shoot houses for IDPA though..........

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too.

Ted

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shoot houses are fun. Best run as a side stage/match instead of a scored stage.

Though breaking up a shoot house into individual stages or strings can work well. They are hard to administer and run efficiently.

Mark

[pisgahrifle]

Yeah, I used to really like blind stages, until i noticed something. ROs tended to have awesome times on those stages opposed to other shooters, oftentimes by gaps that won matches. i wonder why that was?

[freeidaho]

Yeah, I used to really like blind stages, until i noticed something.  ROs tended to have awesome times on those stages opposed to other shooters, oftentimes by gaps that won matches.  i wonder why that was?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, it is a huge advantage. So much of an advantage, that most clubs have to select which one of over 30 volunteer SOs gets the advantage. Yet those that don't want the advantage, want to bitch about it.

Our March IDPA match had a blind stage. The week before the match it took about 4 hours of work to plan out a good blind stage, select props, timing, debug the stage, draw it into a CAD system, make print outs, etc.

The day of the match, it was up at 4:30 to go set up the stage. I arrived at the range about 30 minutes before sun up. I got a rocking target and drop turner and a flip up/down target out of the target shed. It is getting easier to see without the headlights of the truck by now. Next a semi-truck load of tumble weeds had to be cleared out of the pit to be used. After that I drilled new holes and put in some beefy screws into the hinges of the door prop. The door was now moving freely. Next this 10 foot x 8 foot wall with the door in it was positioned in the pit, and vision barriers were attached on both sides. After that the targets and actuating linkages were set into the stage, and tested 10 times. Yep it all works as planned. After checking for shoot throughs, etc I arrived late at the shooters meeting held at 8:45.

At 9:00 shooters began showing up to shoot the blind stage, and by 1pm the last shooter shot the blind stage.... except me of course, I have been stuck on the stage all day so far. I hadn't fired a round yet and almost everyone was gone. At about 2pm, in a hurry up, tired and plain worn out manner, I fired the match, including my blind stage, which I did fine on. Of course by now, almost everyone except me and the MD are gone, so guess who tears all the stages down and hauls all the props/targets back to the target shed. At 4:30 I drive out the gate, and the MD is a few minutes behind me.

So yeah, getting to shoot the blind stage after working 9.5 hours is a big plus. Driving home exausted after 12 hours or work is what shooting is all about isn't it. That is why there are do damned many volunteers. This isn't so bad unto it self, because after all we have a volunteer sport, and we should all do our part. The best part comes later when people that the blind stage was set up to entertain, take cheap shots on the internet. Oh yeah, it is rewarding being an SO.

Ken Reed

'Maybe you could add a new phrase to your rhetoric today. Try saying "Thank you! to the SO of the blind stages, or all the SOs for that matter."

In all fairness I don't know the guy who anonymously posts under the handle "pisgahrifle" and he doesn't shoot at my club. This is a generic rant about lack of appreciation for the work it takes to put on a blind stage, and then be blasted for it on the internet.

[Flexmoney]

freeidaho,

In know where you are coming from. Been down that road a few times.

As the Administrator here, I gotta point out that the Forums are a place to discuss various issues. To get input from various people, often in ways we have never thought of, and might never think of, ourselves.

[Bones]

Get over it Ken.

The world is full of morons. You can't shoot or avoid them all.

Everyone who thinks it's an advantage to be an RO at a major match should do themselves and everyone else a favor by designing a few stages (blind or not) and volunteering to run them.

Blind stages are by far the fairest and (most fun) stages if everyone is honorable and follows the rules. Unfortunately they almost always fail at major matches. See sentences 2 and 3 in this post.

What some competitors will do for a veneered piece of particle board is truly sobering. If they valued their honor as much, our sport would be better for it.

To answer your original question Ben - they are rare - don't sweat it. You can help yourself by shooting as only fast as you can hit things and using cover appropriately.

Craig

[jkelly]

I see freeidaho's last post as encompassing two different trains of thought that have nothing to do with each other.

However underappricated FI might feel, for the effort he puts toward the matches he works, that doesn't alter the fact that shooting a "blind" with prior knowledge is a tremendous advantage.

If it wasn't an advantage, then they wouldn't drop compromised stages, as they did at the last S&W Winter Nationals.

Respectfully,

jkelly

[freeidaho]

....that doesn't alter the fact that shooting a "blind" with prior knowledge is a tremendous advantage.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Respectfully,

It is such an advantage for club matches, that the line to take that tremendous advantage usually has zero people standing it it. That is the paradox of it all.... again at club matches. The very people that will do anything to get an advantage, no matter how tiny, ARE NOT lining up to get this particular advantage that they trumpet.

The ones saying how much advantage it is, are not taking it. Maybe I'm just a woos, but I shoot much better when I'm fresh, not after 8 or 9 hours of work. Maybe, just maybe the worn out factor nullifies the advantage, and that is why there is no one standing in line to take the advantage. Knowing the blind stage ahead of time is indeed an advantage for one stage, and that assumes it wasn't altered before the designer shot it. However being exhausted is a disadvantage on every stage, every draw, every shot. I have never had a match that I worked be my best effort, or even my normal effort.

Just a thought. YMMVAPD.

Either way, I'm done on this one, lest I get another extremely friendly reminder from the moderator. Thanks by the way, well done.

Ken Reed

"You are what you do."