GunCat Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 (edited) I understand WHY we do it (avoiding hanging your thumb)...the question is why does the factory configure the lifter on certain models in such a way that we HAVE TO to make this aftermarket alteration? In my mind I am coming up with the following explanations of the factory design: _________________________________________________________________ 1-The curved area at the end of the lifter is designed to provide somewhat of a V guide for the the shell to contact the lifter while keeping everything lined up for shell insertion (most likely explanation) 2-The curved area at the end of the lifter makes sure the primer is not contacted while loading (No, not likely an issue, but you never know what someone looking to reduce any potential liability may envision) 3-That's the way a lifter has always been made and the factory sees no need to change it now (The reasoning behind many designs ) _________________________________________________________________ Throwing this out there for your input and discussion. I'm always curious about things of this nature and always asking “Why”. Edited January 22, 2012 by GunCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtybomb Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 #1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benny hill Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 So jeff can make a good liveing doing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted January 24, 2012 Share Posted January 24, 2012 (edited) Finally got my new Mossberg 930 in hand, made the modifications I wanted, and headed out to the range. Having read the posts here about welding lifters, I was blissfully aware of watching out for the issue. Had I not paid attention, I certainly would be typing this post minus my thumb, because my thumbnail would be under the snow outside. If Jeff is the guy to send my lifter to, can someone point me in his direction, or any other shop capable of doing a decent job? If I attempt to do this work, I am certain I will be buying a second lifter from Mossberg. So jeff can make a good liveing doing them. Edited January 24, 2012 by mont1120 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunCat Posted January 24, 2012 Author Share Posted January 24, 2012 Finally got my new Mossberg 930 in hand, made the modifications I wanted, and headed out to the range. Having read the posts here about welding lifters, I was blissfully aware of watching out for the issue. Had I not paid attention, I certainly would be typing this post minus my thumb, because my thumbnail would be under the snow outside. If Jeff is the guy to send my lifter to, can someone point me in his direction, or any other shop capable of doing a decent job? If I attempt to do this work, I am certain I will be buying a second lifter from Mossberg. So jeff can make a good liveing doing them. Jeff's web site Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchang0 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 #1. I've had to file and reshape the beveled edges of the chamber (especially at the extractor) after welding up my carrier because it no longer had the notch to direct the shell into the chamber. Shells would catch on the edges all the time, which did not happen when the notch was unaltered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) I'm never going to be anywhere near competitive in shotgun, but still enjoy running one. I was keenly aware how often my friends M2 and my other friends 870 tried to eat my thumb. This ergonomic issue is the main reason I went with a M590. My only question is why can't they make a semi feed more like a 590? Does the extra shell lifter movement take too much gas or something? Edited January 28, 2012 by PistoleroJesse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter115 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I'm never going to be anywhere near competitive in shotgun, but still enjoy running one. I was keenly aware how often my friends M2 and my other friends 870 tried to eat my thumb. This ergonomic issue is the main reason I went with a M590. My only question is why can't they make a semi feed more like a 590? Does the extra shell lifter movement take too much gas or something? Okay your post has me confused a bit. The reason the M2 likes to grab your thumb is due to the forked lifter, which is what gets welded up. This isn't an issue on an 870 at all. Actually the easiest loading shotgun I own is a Winchester 1300 Defender. But come game time I'm grabbin my M2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I'm never going to be anywhere near competitive in shotgun, but still enjoy running one. I was keenly aware how often my friends M2 and my other friends 870 tried to eat my thumb. This ergonomic issue is the main reason I went with a M590. My only question is why can't they make a semi feed more like a 590? Does the extra shell lifter movement take too much gas or something? Okay your post has me confused a bit. The reason the M2 likes to grab your thumb is due to the forked lifter, which is what gets welded up. This isn't an issue on an 870 at all. Actually the easiest loading shotgun I own is a Winchester 1300 Defender. But come game time I'm grabbin my M2 I'm talking about how most shotguns where the shell lifter stays down. The M590's stays up all the time, and the Nova stays up once pressed up, both of which resolve this problem through the way the action works. Does this make them more mechanically fragile? I don't think so or else the M590 wouldn't have won the USMC contract. So what gives? Why can't semi autos solve the thumb bit problem another way? Yes, the question was put forth why don't all the lifters come pre welded so as to not eat your thumb? I just thought it was odd that there are examples that solve this problem through designing the lifter out of the loading process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter115 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I'm never going to be anywhere near competitive in shotgun, but still enjoy running one. I was keenly aware how often my friends M2 and my other friends 870 tried to eat my thumb. This ergonomic issue is the main reason I went with a M590. My only question is why can't they make a semi feed more like a 590? Does the extra shell lifter movement take too much gas or something? Okay your post has me confused a bit. The reason the M2 likes to grab your thumb is due to the forked lifter, which is what gets welded up. This isn't an issue on an 870 at all. Actually the easiest loading shotgun I own is a Winchester 1300 Defender. But come game time I'm grabbin my M2 I'm talking about how most shotguns where the shell lifter stays down. The M590's stays up all the time, and the Nova stays up once pressed up, both of which resolve this problem through the way the action works. Does this make them more mechanically fragile? I don't think so or else the M590 wouldn't have won the USMC contract. So what gives? Why can't semi autos solve the thumb bit problem another way? Yes, the question was put forth why don't all the lifters come pre welded so as to not eat your thumb? I just thought it was odd that there are examples that solve this problem through designing the lifter out of the loading process. Gotcha...I guess I don't know the answer to that one. The lifter on my 1300 stays up on its own also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Being the Forest Gump of Benelli's, I will tell you that welding up lifters is not just about closing that gap. There's welding and then there's welding. Lifters have timing and flexibility built into them. If you could take out welded lifters-you would see all kinds of shapes and thicknesses. If you shoot enough rounds you will find out when things aren't right. Benelli lifters are supposed to guide the round into the chamber. These guns aren't built for speed competition , which is why they have to be modified. If you are duck hunting, you don't need a shot a second. That's why you have to weld up lifters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dchang0 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 (edited) I'm talking about how most shotguns where the shell lifter stays down. The M590's stays up all the time, and the Nova stays up once pressed up, both of which resolve this problem through the way the action works. Does this make them more mechanically fragile? I don't think so or else the M590 wouldn't have won the USMC contract. So what gives? Why can't semi autos solve the thumb bit problem another way? Yes, the question was put forth why don't all the lifters come pre welded so as to not eat your thumb? I just thought it was odd that there are examples that solve this problem through designing the lifter out of the loading process. I've wondered the same thing and concluded that it has something to do with timing. If the lifter stays up when you push it up to load, that means that there is no shell on top of the lifter (obviously), possibly one in the chamber, and then one in the tube (after you put it there). If there is a round in the chamber, firing the shotgun could provide enough energy to flip the lifter down before popping the next round out of the tube onto the lifter and then lifting that round back up into the chamber, but that's a long "round trip" to do one one cycle. If you have no round in the chamber and you are depressing a button rather than cycling the bolt, then it will require spring force somewhere to pop the lifter back down just before releasing the one in the tube onto the top of the lifter, which also requires precise timing. I think it was just easier to put the spring in there that keeps the lifter down all the time except when it's forced up to load a shell into the chamber. Pump shotguns get around all of this by having the human operate the shell movements--this provides the mechanism with both the backward and forward force of racking the pump, versus the single backwards stroke of a semiauto's piston or inertia drive followed by a weaker spring-driven forward return. Edited January 28, 2012 by dchang0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PistoleroJesse Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I'm talking about how most shotguns where the shell lifter stays down. The M590's stays up all the time, and the Nova stays up once pressed up, both of which resolve this problem through the way the action works. Does this make them more mechanically fragile? I don't think so or else the M590 wouldn't have won the USMC contract. So what gives? Why can't semi autos solve the thumb bit problem another way? Yes, the question was put forth why don't all the lifters come pre welded so as to not eat your thumb? I just thought it was odd that there are examples that solve this problem through designing the lifter out of the loading process. I've wondered the same thing and concluded that it has something to do with timing. If the lifter stays up when you push it up to load, that means that there is no shell on top of the lifter (obviously), possibly one in the chamber, and then one in the tube (after you put it there). If there is a round in the chamber, firing the shotgun could provide enough energy to flip the lifter down before popping the next round out of the tube onto the lifter and then lifting that round back up into the chamber, but that's a long "round trip" to do one one cycle. If you have no round in the chamber and you are depressing a button rather than cycling the bolt, then it will require spring force somewhere to pop the lifter back down just before releasing the one in the tube onto the top of the lifter, which also requires precise timing. I think it was just easier to put the spring in there that keeps the lifter down all the time except when it's forced up to load a shell into the chamber. Pump shotguns get around all of this by having the human operate the shell movements--this provides the mechanism with both the backward and forward force of racking the pump, versus the single backwards stroke of a semiauto's piston or inertia drive followed by a weaker spring-driven forward return. Now that I can understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Can someone post a JM 930 lifter pre and post welding so I have a clue as to what we're talking about as far as the welding is concernd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunsen27 Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Can someone post a JM 930 lifter pre and post welding so I have a clue as to what we're talking about as far as the welding is concernd? Not of a 930 but you'll get the idea: http://www.flickr.com/photos/77833900@N08/6866151440/ photo courtesy of FriedChickenBlowout and this thread http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=148752 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gose Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I understand WHY we do it (avoiding hanging your thumb)...the question is why does the factory configure the lifter on certain models in such a way that we HAVE TO to make this aftermarket alteration? I have loaded quite a few thousand rounds through mine, both at home and at various matches, and I have yet to have my thumb get stuck. So no, its definitely not something that you have to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted April 4, 2012 Share Posted April 4, 2012 I understand WHY we do it (avoiding hanging your thumb)...the question is why does the factory configure the lifter on certain models in such a way that we HAVE TO to make this aftermarket alteration? I have loaded quite a few thousand rounds through mine, both at home and at various matches, and I have yet to have my thumb get stuck. So no, its definitely not something that you have to do. Me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Woodfield Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Can someone post a JM 930 lifter pre and post welding so I have a clue as to what we're talking about as far as the welding is concernd? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 Anyone just making an aftermarket lifter? What's it cost to get a lifter welded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Woodfield Posted April 5, 2012 Share Posted April 5, 2012 I understand WHY we do it (avoiding hanging your thumb)...the question is why does the factory configure the lifter on certain models in such a way that we HAVE TO to make this aftermarket alteration? I have loaded quite a few thousand rounds through mine, both at home and at various matches, and I have yet to have my thumb get stuck. So no, its definitely not something that you have to do. I agree that you do not have to extend the lifter. We do a lot of things we don't HAVE to do in this sport. It really boils down to does YOUR thumb get caught in YOUR gun. Mine did, so i extended the lifter - problem solved. If it yours doesn't hang, don't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Yeah, so I loaded my JM 930 for the first time and couldn't keep my thumb from getting caught even going slow. Has anyone ordered a spare lifter from Mossberg to send to c-rums? I'm not keen on having my shotgun out of commission for a few weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunCat Posted April 16, 2012 Author Share Posted April 16, 2012 Yeah, so I loaded my JM 930 for the first time and couldn't keep my thumb from getting caught even going slow. Has anyone ordered a spare lifter from Mossberg to send to c-rums? I'm not keen on having my shotgun out of commission for a few weeks. You can do that (assuming you can get a lifter from Mossberg). I've sent new Benelli lifters to Jeff so I have them on hand and ready for the next gun I'm working on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Stephens Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 I've been running my Benelli for almost a year now without a welded lifter. With the right loading technique you don't get your thumb stuck. Try adjusting the angle of your thumb as you load. What also helps is opening up your loading port, much easier to get the shell past the stop without having to stick the tip of your thumb in too far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisMcCracken Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 As an alternate option, has anyone tried attaching anything to the lifter to bridge the offending gap? I was thinking about cutting a piece of plastic from a flimsy cooking spatula and somehow gluing it to the lifter or some other strategy to affix a plastic or rubber extender to the lifter. Thoughts? Attempts? Pics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.E. Kelley Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 This works too. (Win. SX2/ FN) I did it as an experiment many years ago. It reduces the chance for thumb bite and the gun still operates fine. I have since moved on to Benelli's and do not weld nor cut the lifter as my loading technique keep my thumb intact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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