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Eight shooters not much help at Area 6 match

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On 5/9/2017 at 3:21 PM, Blueridge said:

I was advised by Peter Oliver (the match director in the 2016 Area 6 match) that the two revolver shooters that went sub-minor do not count for match recognition, per page 73 (#40) in the rule book and thus do not count as competing in the match as required for recognition per Appendix 2. There were originally 11 revolver competitors at the start of the match, and when two went sub-minor the official number dropped to 9 which was below the 10 required to recognize the division. That was what I was advised when I asked him.

 

I believed that was for individual recognition.  For Division recognition it is the number of competitors who sign up/attempt to compete.  Being DQ'd also leads to no recognition.  

Out of curiosity I'll submit the question to NROI and find out if I'm wrong.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/4/2017 at 1:26 PM, Blueridge said:

  

I shot Area 6 in 2016, and there were 11 revolver shooters that shot the match. Unfortunately two of them did not pass chronograph, and thus did not count as shooting the match. A comment was made that not enough revolver shooters had shot the match, but they still awarded a plaque and made it sound like it was a hardship to do that.

 

I was not happy about that, but I chalked it up to being a one time thing. The 2017 match came around, and it felt like the same attitude was in effect. The match director changed as it got close to the match dates. and I think the new one had a better attitude, but decisions had already been made to merge Revolver and Limited-10. 

As promised I emailed Troy McManus at NROI and here was his response to the question of:

 

If 10 competitors sign up and compete in a Level III match, and one chronographs at sub-minor will that competitor still count towards the Division requirements of 10 competitors?  

I quoted the applicable rules on no recognition for sub-minor and then stated, I believed that this meant no "individual" recognition which precludes them from receiving any awards/trophies, but since the competitor did sign up and attempt the COF, they counted for "Match" recognition for that Division.

Troy responded:

Generally, the number of competitors in a match is known in advance of the match starting, and that will guide the recognition process.  Going sub-minor or disqualifying doesn't affect the numbers used in each division or category to plan for awards, as it happens during the match, and not before.  There has to be a common sense approach to using the numbers USPSA lists as needed for recognition.

 

Troy

 

I take it from this that the Area 6 should have recognized Revolver Division, even with the 2 sub-minors.  You may wish to contact Troy at DNROI@USPSA.org and at least inform him of the issue.

Edited by pskys2

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Always best to go straight to the source for rules clarifications. I had to contact Troy once about a Production related matter and he responded promptly with the answer. It was much appreciated.

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On 5/11/2017 at 0:31 PM, deerassassin22 said:

Why did the 8 Shot kill revolver I keep hearing this can some tell me why I came in after the 8 Shot.

 

Lots of people didn't want to buy new guns just to stay in the game.

 

It drove off many diehards and a lot of occasional players alike. I literally know six guys who'd just bought 625's the year before to shoot revolver now and then who haven't touched them since the change (other than to sell them). 

 

And some people like me, I'm always looking for an excuse to buy a new gun, I just have no interest in 8 shot revolver, to me it's contrary to the whole point.

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But this happens in every division.  I just don't understand why everyone is so mad about 8 shots.  Guns evolve just like the sport

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No... six shooters are still six shooters. 

And eight shooters are not a new invention. 

For me the challenge and enjoyment was in only six shots.

 

We're going full circle, USPSA is slowing making all the divisions more and more alike, which is counterproductive in my opinion. They've made revolver more like Single Stack and Limited-10, SS minor is growing in popularity making it more like L-10 and Production, they're making Production more and more like Limited every month ;) , Carry Optics is filling in the actual division between divisions...  We're headed right back where we started. 

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4 hours ago, cas said:

 

Lots of people didn't want to buy new guns just to stay in the game.

 

It drove off many diehards and a lot of occasional players alike. 

 

How much of a "diehard" could a person be if he didn't already have an 8-shooter and wasn't willing to buy one?  

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How much of a "diehard" could a person be if he didn't already have an 8-shooter and wasn't willing to buy one?  

I only had an 8 shooter at the time, I was stuck shooting limited 10 minor. I picked up my 625 a month after the rule change. My scores are 3% different at a typical club match between the two guns. How many of us are losing by 3%?

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99% of us shoot just for fun! No hope to become the CHAMPION or to get an income from the sport.

I got an 8 shot 20 years ago or so because I liked it, now after more than 15 years of 6 shot 646/625 finally I can put it on the firing line, I'm happy!

Our division is nomore for the fastest reloader but , as it should be, for the fastest ( and accurate) shooter!

BUT the S&W 646s in the safe can still get a good score.

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On 5/13/2017 at 0:07 PM, pskys2 said:

As promised I emailed Troy McManus at NROI and here was his response to the question of:

 

If 10 competitors sign up and compete in a Level III match, and one chronographs at sub-minor will that competitor still count towards the Division requirements of 10 competitors?  

I quoted the applicable rules on no recognition for sub-minor and then stated, I believed that this meant no "individual" recognition which precludes them from receiving any awards/trophies, but since the competitor did sign up and attempt the COF, they counted for "Match" recognition for that Division.

Troy responded:

Generally, the number of competitors in a match is known in advance of the match starting, and that will guide the recognition process.  Going sub-minor or disqualifying doesn't affect the numbers used in each division or category to plan for awards, as it happens during the match, and not before.  There has to be a common sense approach to using the numbers USPSA lists as needed for recognition.

 

Troy

 

I take it from this that the Area 6 should have recognized Revolver Division, even with the 2 sub-minors.  You may wish to contact Troy at DNROI@USPSA.org and at least inform him of the issue.

Thanks for your time in emailing Mr. McManus about this. It is nice to get this clarification, as I had thought recognition would be based off of the number that competed at the match, even if some went sub-minor at chrono. I did not feel that it was worth the time to go beyond the match director reference to the 2016 match. I know for future reference should a similar situation arise.

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On 5/17/2017 at 0:22 PM, Blueridge said:

Thanks for your time in emailing Mr. McManus about this. It is nice to get this clarification, as I had thought recognition would be based off of the number that competed at the match, even if some went sub-minor at chrono. I did not feel that it was worth the time to go beyond the match director reference to the 2016 match. I know for future reference should a similar situation arise.

The reason why I said to email Troy is that this guy was acting as a MD at an Area Match.  He should know better.  SO he was either taking advantage of a Division and it's competitors or he shouldn't be a MD.  But if nobody tells Troy he can't rectify the situation so it doesn't happen again.

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