Modified stages after the match starts.

[Glock26Toter]

Here's the situation that happened at Aurora Gun Club on Saturday.

At AGC we have some very strict rules and a "less than optimal" relationship with the range. One of these rules is that we can ONLY engage steel targets from DIRECTLY IN FRONT. No angle at all can be introduced to a steel target. This means that we have very small and usually port limited engagements on steel.

There was a stage (a new stage designer's 3rd stage) that I helped setup and we created some no shoots that were stacked up as high as we thought necessary to prevent anyone from shooting over the top.

A shooter was about to shoot (I was the scorekeeper) and rehearsed standing on the fault line and shooting over the top at a steep angle to the steel. I told him I was not going to allow him to shoot that plan and we would need to call it a "preemptive forbidden action." Yes, I know the rule, but if we allowed a competitor to actually perform the action in order to follow the rule to the letter, and an AGC representative saw it, or WORSE the bullet left the range we could all be in a world of hurt.

It's important to note we were almost exactly 1000ft from E-470 and the shot would have been angled toward the highway. I saw this as a textbook example of why the rule is in place.

Since I couldn't talk anyone into the "preemptive forbidden action" call I had requested, I took 2 no-shoot targets and made the blocking no-shoots higher. I felt it was the lesser of the two evils since it was not modifying the engagements or moving anything in any way.

After a discussion about that with the shooter upset about the "stage modification" I saw his point and was advocating to have the stage thrown out. I never found out if the competitor lodging the complaint had intended to shoot it that way, but he was the first to shoot it after the modification, hence the appropriate one to have said complaint.

The RM's point was that it was not a modification of stage engagement or shooting view and it was a local safety measure only and that it should stay in.

In the end, it was decided to keep the stage in and offer a re shoot to the 8-10 competitors that had shot it. No one accepted and we moved on.

This exact scenario has happened at this range before and the "preemptive forbidden action" was allowed. This is an important a local rule, and in order to continue having matches at this range we must comply with it. I guess the question here is, would a preemptive forbidden action be the best call for this scenario or is there some other way we could handle this without having to throw stages out every time someone is about to do something against a local rule? (keeping in mind, we are only human and this is an oversight issue, NOT a stage design issue. We do our best to prevent it.)

[Mhall]

You could declare a forbidden action for instances like these before the match starts. Any shooter ignoring the action should be DQd.

[ChuckS]

First of all, I am 6'4". Trust me when I say I can see over stuff that many can't. And, you may not see me airgun it on the walk through! (That is my payback for low ports ) I would suggest that you put the statement "all walls and or barriers extend vertically to infinity" on your stage design template so it is always in the stage description. You are approaching the range restrictions by course design and that is a very good thing. I would also suggest that you have a third party QC your stages for undesirable angles and such. Sometimes the stage designers are too close to their work. A fresh perspective often helps Rule 2.3 tells you how to deal with course modifications. My only other comment is that if the RM decides that a reshoot is required, it is not optional!

Good work!

Chuck

.

[LilBunniFuFu]

If you ever go shoot USPSA down at USA in Frostproof you will encounter a rule deemed the "Luigi" rule. This is pretty much a standing all walls go to infinity at every match. They got tired of me shooting over walls and such.

[thermobollocks]

Unfortunately a no-shoot isn't considered a wall. But, if you spray-paint them black, they could become a barrier

[EEH]

I guess my only response would be do what ever you have to do to keep the matches going

[Glock26Toter]

Thanks for the input guys.

And, after reviewing the rule. It looks like neither I, nor anyone involved actually knew the rule.

According to what I'm reading you don't have to wait for the competitor to actually perform the forbidden action when it comes to safety.

2.3.1.1.a.... Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition.
Further study reveals that declaration of a forbidden action never required letting the competitor perform the action. IF a competitor does it, the call is made and he's required to re-shoot it, but it doesn't actually say we have to wait for it.

Now, with regard to making said "modification" after the match has started I see that you can't "offer" a reshoot. If it's deemed needed, then it's mandatory.

Part of what I think if most interesting about the rule book is how some rules are "made up" or otherwise "massaged" over time and how important it is to constantly review it. I wish I had actually reviewed this rule prior to thinking I knew what I was talking about. That entire situation would have been much simpler and over with before it even started.

I appreciate the comments so far.

Also, we have a Q.C. guy who's job it is to look for these things. Also missed by him since he's not 6'4".

Looks like the best call would have been to have looked in the darn rule book to determine the true application of forbidden action and apply it properly.

[LilBunniFuFu]

Looks like the best call would have been to have looked in the darn rule book to determine the true application of forbidden action and apply it properly.

That's why most of the RMI from NROI drill it into your head. When in doubt, "show me in the rulebook" Very simple to deal with these issues if you have somebody look it up.

[okorpheus]

You could declare a forbidden action for instances like these before the match starts. Any shooter ignoring the action should be DQd.

Something like this came up in the discussion at a CRO class I took this weekend with Troy. Unless I misunderstood him, you cannot declare a forbidden action ahead of time. You can only declare something a forbidden action after someone actually does the action in question.

"walls extend from the ground to infinity" in the stage description is probably the best bet.

Edited May 30, 2016 by okorpheus

[okorpheus]

Different situation, but the first column on page 7 has info that relates to forbidden actions.

http://www.uspsa.org/frontsight_archive/a/2013-07.pdf

[Glock26Toter]

Interesting that this was a recent discussion. It must be a misunderstanding or a different situation. Or maybe the rule has changed.

The rule seems very clear here regardless of what was discussed. Keeping in mind that everyone involved in my situation, including me also thought the action had to be performed before prohibited so I'm not saying the thought is unfounded, but I can't figure out another way to interpret what I'm reading in the current rule book....

2.3.1 Match Officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain safety during a course of fire.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition.

Nothing in the rule about having to wait until afterwards.

Where I think the interpretation comes from is rule 3.2.6 that covers the "afterwards" part...

3.2.6 In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course requirements, and that action creates a safety issue, the Range Master must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may rule that the action is allowed and the competitor’s score will stand. Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course of fire, and/or may declare that the action is “forbidden” for safety reasons. (See Rule 2.3, including subsections)

I fail to interpret this as anything other than...

If a competitor is likely to do something unsafe we can apply rule 2.3.1.1.a to forbid it. If a competitor has already done something unsafe we can use rule 3.2.6 to make a determination whether it was unsafe and decide to use 2.3.1.1.a to call it as such. (more specifically we MUST call the RM to make that determination.)

Think about the logic of requiring us to stand by and watch someone do something unsafe with a gun before we can stop it.

[thermobollocks]

The forbidden action language was updated for the 2014 rulebook. The modifications to the course of fire, however, remain the same. As I understand it, you can modify the course at any time, but forbidden actions are more aptly used if someone does something far-out like jump off the scaffolding at CRC.

[JAFO]

This is from the 2014 Rules Change Summary (bold emphasis as printed):

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain safety during a course of fire.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers and/or physical barriers or off limit lines.

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers, physical barriers, or off limits lines.

c. Subject to 2.3.1.1(a) and ( b ), an area of the range floor may be declared off limits. The area must be clearly delineated with Off-Limits Lines (Rule 2.2.1.5). Crossing an Off Limits

Line will result in a zero for the stage.

d. Any Forbidden Action or Off Limits Area must be specified in the Written Stage Briefing (See Rules 2.3.3 and 3.2.3).

Edited May 31, 2016 by JAFO

[okorpheus]

From the 2014 rules changes document on the USPSA website (link below):

Re-states that forbidden action is used for safety issues, and spells out the penalty for committing a Forbidden Action after one has been declared. Note that a competitor must commit a specific act for a Forbidden Action to be declared; it may not be declared prior to anyone actually shooting the stage.

http://www.uspsa.org/document_library/rules/2014/2014%20Rules%20Changes.pdf

[JAFO]

Rule 2.3.1.1.a doesn't state any restrictions on when an FA may be issued for safety concerns. And the language of 3.2.6 doesn't limit declaring Forbidden Actions to after they have been committed during a course of fire. It gives an example of when and how one can be used, but it doesn't say FAs may only be issued after occurring. That italicized comment in the 2014 Changes document does say that, but it doesn't appear anywhere in the rulebook. If the 2014 Changes document should be considered part of the rulebook, then OK.

It seems that you should be able to declare a FA if you foresee a potential safety issue with a stage and cannot otherwise design around it. Having to wait until someone commits the action may create the envisioned safety issue and possibly lead to injury. I'd prefer to redesign whenever possible, but some ranges may not have the flexibility.

And if you do have to wait until someone commits the action, is there a problem with telling a shooter that, if they commit the action they are practicing during a walkthrough, you will stop them and ask for a FA ruling from the RM?

[poolguy]

3.2.6 In the event that a competitor action contravenes the course requirements, and that action creates a safety issue, the Range Master must be immediately summoned for a ruling. The Range Master may rule that the action is allowed and the competitors score will stand. Alternatively, the Range Master may require modifications to the course of fire, and/or may declare that the action is forbidden for safety reasons. (See Rule 2.3, including subsections)

3.2.6.1 Following the declaration of a Forbidden Action, the shooter(s) whose action(s) resulted in such a declaration shall be required to reshoot the course of fire. Subsequent violations by any competitor will result in a disqualification.

I would think the rule reads pretty clear. A competitor action has to create the safety issue.

Edited June 3, 2016 by poolguy

[ChuckS]

I would think the rule reads pretty clear. A competitor action has to create the safety issue.

As JAFO was saying, look at 2.3. the MO can modify a COF. or declare an FA in lieu of the mod for any reason. 3.2.6 just tells you how to handle a new unsafe action real-time.

2.3 Modifications to Course Construction

2.3.1 Match Officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.

2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain safety during a course of fire.

a. Declaration of a Forbidden Action may be made to prohibit competitor movement which is likely to result in an unsafe condition.

b. The declaration of a Forbidden Action cannot be used as a means of compelling or limiting competitor movement within a course of fire (e.g., to prevent a shooter from “cutting the corner” on an L-shaped shooting area). Except as provided in Rule 1.1.5.1, a course designer wishing to compel or limit competitor movement must do so using target placement, vision barriers, physical barriers, or off -limits lines.

[poolguy]

2.3.1.1 deals with limiting competitor movement. In b even addresses vision barrier which is what was needed for the situation. It was a fault in the stage layout that was not caught until the course of fire had already been shot. If the shooter just shot over it creating the issue, stop them. Declare the forbidden action and have them reshoot. If they announce that was their plan, I would advise them of my intentions as a RO that I will stop them a declare the FA. If no one else has shot over it, why not put up the vision barrier? What shooter will be affected by that?

[JAFO]

2.3.1.1 does not solely deal with limiting movement. 2.3.1.1.b specifically states you cannot use a FA to limit movement, but 2.3.1.1.a allows a RM to declare a FA to avoid a potentially unsafe condition.

To me, that means if I see a hole that was missed during setup, and a potentially unsafe action may arise from a competitor exploiting it, I can consult with the RM to decide how to deal with it. If the COF can be modified easily to prevent the action, that would be the preferable route. But if it can't, or if too many people would have to reshoot the stage after a physical change was made, the RM declares a FA and the match goes on.

[pskys2]

Include the following in your standard stage description:

All Inverted No Shoots shall be considered Amazons and can not be shot over

[okorpheus]

2.3.1 Match Officials may, for any reason, modify the physical construction or stage procedure for a course of fire, provided that such changes are approved in advance by the Range Master. Any such physical changes or additions to a published course of fire should be completed before the stage begins.
2.3.1.1 In lieu of modifying course design or physical construction, a Range Master may explicitly forbid certain competitor actions in order to maintain safety during a course of fire.

The forbidden action is a way of maintaining safety if an issue arises after shooting begins. If you see something that will be a safety problem before shooting arises, the solution isn't a forbidden action, the solution is modifying the stage. Once shooting has begun, modifying the stage brings up issues of competitive equity hence the need for such a thing as forbidden actions.