Shotgun & Rifle Hi Capacity Magazine Restrictions

[Jesse Tischauser]

Several major matches, Blue Ridge, Tarheel, Task Force Dagger, Rocky Mountain and now FNH have some sort of magazine size restriction. Some say round counts must be X rounds or less, some restrict length or width, coupled or no coupled.

What's your thoughts on limiting rifle mags to say 30 rounds and shotgun tubes to say 8 rounds?

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[Bentsight]

What's next, cover garments too???

[MarkCO]

Wait a second, that is not a universal restriction, just in some divisions and the restrictions vary. I see no problem with it at all as long as open is open. Before you started shooting Jesse, 30 round mags and 8 round tubes were about all there were.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Wait a second, that is not a universal restriction, just in some divisions and the restrictions vary. I see no problem with it at all as long as open is open. Before you started shooting Jesse, 30 round mags and 8 round tubes were about all there were.

I didn't mean to imply there was anything universal. I could only wish for something that made that much sense. I'm simply wondering why the change occurred to allow these big long ugly stupid magazines and mag tubes in the first place. As well as wondering what new shooters think. Personally I think a 30 round mag and an 8 round tube in every division but open makes a lot of sense. But I know that just about every shooter I know has one or both of those things already. So is it too late to digress and change it back or would it be a good thing for the sport?

I don't know what the answer is. Just curious what everyone thinks. The one thing I do know is that I'm tired of packing different ammo mags guns and gear for each match.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[MarkCO]

I think it just kind of happened. When there were only reliable 20s and 30s, there was no rule against 40s, which often did not work. Now there are reliable 40s, 45s, 48s, 55s and sometimes reliable 60s, and 100s. Kind of crazy, but 3Gunners don't like rules, so adding a sentence to a rulebook gets the MD flamed. The 22" barrel and mag tube not past it went away at RM3G years ago as an old holdover from SOF. To figure out how 5 different MDs think about it takes 5 different answers. When Chris asked me about mag and shotgun limits, I said I liked 8 for everything but open, but the other matches are 8+1 at the start and unlimited thereafter, so to be in concert, it would make sense to follow suit. I also like 30 for the rifle, but counting rounds...not a fan. That is why I really like Larry's box idea. It fits the box or it does not. But like someone mentioned, it has to be a box that will take the variety of flavors that would still be 30 rounders.

Maybe a rule like...fits the box AND no more than 31 rounds for rifle mags is a good start. I get all kinds of folks seeing the "spears" and want 13 or 14 rounds in their shotgun. After we talk about shell surge, spring trimming and replacement, a lot fall back to 9 or 10 rounds. The 3GN Pro matches are obviously a different animal and some of the considerations for a major match don't factor in to that format.

Edited July 25, 2013 by MarkCO

[R-Bros_JLR]

FWIW, I am in favor of 30 round mags for rifle, 140mm for pistol, and 8+1 to start for shotgun with unlimited after the buzzer goes off.

ETA: Open is open and everything goes there, my comments are for the other divisions.

Edited July 25, 2013 by R-Bros_JLR

[atvman400]

I'm in favor of the 30 round rifle, 140mm pistol, and 8+1 in shotgun because I think it makes a more even playing field. Like you said Jesse, most people all ready have 30 round ar mags and 140 pistol mags. With some of the stuff now days it becomes somewhat of a gear race and not as much about who the actual better shooter/stage planner is.

IMO open is for the gear race.

[outerlimits]

gotta have a way to distance open from tac ops

[Powerslide91]

Personally I like the idea of adding these limits. 140mm double stack / 170 single stack seems to have alot of traction already, so stay with it. 30 round mags (20 rounds Heavy) max makes sense for rifle again on common available mags. 8 round tube seems reasonable for the common barrel lengths out there. They should apply to any point during a stage (I'm not a fan of starting at 8+1 and then being able to add more rounds to the tube in stage before firing).

If nothing else, Limited and Tac Optics are where the majority of new shooters to the game are going to land. Kinda sucks to show up to learn a new game, but instantly feel like you need all sorts of new / special gear to be able to play. It is bad enough with optics and things like shell caddies.

Plus I think it would bring back a neat element to the game in planning your run and adds the element of weapons manipulations back in. It is another way for folks to separate themselves timewise. It also might give match directors / stage designers some more elements to test us with.

I’m as bad as anyone probably trying to play this game; I’ve spent a ton of money on 40 and 60 round mags, different shotgun tubes and the like. But I like what I think it would do from the competition side of things.

[atvman400]

Personally I like the idea of adding these limits. 140mm double stack / 170 single stack seems to have alot of traction already, so stay with it. 30 round mags (20 rounds Heavy) max makes sense for rifle again on common available mags. 8 round tube seems reasonable for the common barrel lengths out there. They should apply to any point during a stage (I'm not a fan of starting at 8+1 and then being able to add more rounds to the tube in stage before firing).

If nothing else, Limited and Tac Optics are where the majority of new shooters to the game are going to land. Kinda sucks to show up to learn a new game, but instantly feel like you need all sorts of new / special gear to be able to play. It is bad enough with optics and things like shell caddies.

Plus I think it would bring back a neat element to the game in planning your run and adds the element of weapons manipulations back in. It is another way for folks to separate themselves timewise. It also might give match directors / stage designers some more elements to test us with.

I’m as bad as anyone probably trying to play this game; I’ve spent a ton of money on 40 and 60 round mags, different shotgun tubes and the like. But I like what I think it would do from the competition side of things.

This is what I ment to say. Powerslide just said it ALOT better. lol

[co-exprs]

I'll play to the rules, whatever they are. I do wish that equipment rules were more standardized across the various matches. If they become standardized then whatever numbers are chosen really become arbitrary. If arbitrary then they should be designed to encourage growth in sport. 8rd shotguns and 30rd mags wouldn't be as much fun in terms of the arms race, but would ease the transition for new comers to our sport and emphasize skill to win matches rather than gadgets. I think the standardization of magazine limits would ultimately be beneficial to everyone.

[mechanical]

I like the idea of a magazine size restriction (outside of open).

However, I oppose blanket dimensional restrictions (ie, a 7.5"x3"x1" box or similar). I'm primarily a Sig rifle shooter and generally prefer them to my AR. (If any of you remember, I was the joker who shot the SG552 at the 2011 FNH match.)

550 type mags are a little wider than the proposed FNH magazine box, yet are still only 30rds. I'm not a top level competitor, but I'll argue that my magazine being 1/8" wider than an AR mag does not give me any competitive advantage.

I might be a nobody, but I strongly encourage any magazine size limit rule be written with non-AR shooters in mind.

(throw us a bone, it's not like we're always winning these matches)

Either write an exception for "factory double stack 30rd mags for non-AR15 rifles exceeding the dimensions by not more than 0.5" in any direction", or have a whitelist of approved non-AR 30rd mags (550, HK93, G36, AK, "match director will review others on request", etc).

You could even just say "31 rds max capacity". You'd enforce it the same way the 140mm/170mm limit on pistol mags is enforced.

(Check capacity if someone notices it seems to big, or complains, or a random capacity check if you're so inclined)

If you want to attack the "monopodding off a giant floorplate" aspect, you could limit it to "31rd double stack mags, floorplates no thicker than 0.375" and no more than 0.25" wider/longer than magazine body". Heck, throw a max overall magazine length in there if you want, but just be generous enough to include non-AR 30rd magazines.

[mpeltier]

I really don't care. I have mostly used 30's in my ar (I do have a 40 but almost never use it and wouldn't miss it) always been under 140 with my pistol and 8+1 is all my shotgun ever held. I've never been beaten because the other guy had a bigger magazine. Some folks get warm and fuzzy feeling it somehow levels the playing field. Whatever, the guys that are finishing ahead will still finish ahead. Make the capacity whatever you want, I'll still play, order of finish will still be the same.

[Jadeslade]

8+1 for Tactical Division for shotgun should be the max. Or change the name. Nobody in their right mind would carry the proboscis shotgun in a tactical situation. I thought it was pandering to change the Multigun Rules this year because a couple guys wanted to use their long tubes in Tactical. The standards for 140mm for pistol mags is borrowed from USPSA. Rifle mags- I love my Pmags, I have 4 or five longer mags, but the Surefire 60rd mags seem destined to become standard issue for everyone soon and fit the Tactical Division well.

[co-exprs]

No one complains about the magazine restrictions in heavy divisions. We all simply bring the appropriate gear and compete on equal footing. I can't even think of a single heavy shooter running more than a 10rd mag on their pump gun. Most just run 8 or 9. If magazine restrictions work in Heavy, no reason they wouldn't work in other divisions.

[Jesse Tischauser]

No one complains about the magazine restrictions in heavy divisions. We all simply bring the appropriate gear and compete on equal footing. I can't even think of a single heavy shooter running more than a 10rd mag on their pump gun. Most just run 8 or 9. If magazine restrictions work in Heavy, no reason they wouldn't work in other divisions.

I ran a 13 round tube all year last year in Heavy. Plus I dropped $150 on a Higher Capacity 30rd .308 mag for the NW Multi Gun match.

I need the 30 round .308 mag to beat Scott McGregor too.

[Jesse Tischauser]

8+1 for Tactical Division for shotgun should be the max. Or change the name. Nobody in their right mind would carry the proboscis shotgun in a tactical situation.

I took my 13 round tube out just the other night in CQB Ranger run on a tactical middle of night skunk elimination mission. It Worked just fine especially when I missed with the first 10 shots as I was driving and got him with the 11 & 12th rounds

The tactical crowd runs 18" barrels and 6 or 7 round tubes. Should we slim it down to the real tactical division?

I still haven't really heard a good reason not to allow higher capacity gear. New shooters can buy 12 round tubes and 40 round mags for the same price as the lower capacity siblings. There is nobody forcing them to buy the short stuff. In fact all the media you see has the high cap stuff.

Is differentiation from Open to Tactical it?

[co-exprs]

Hey JJ... could you paint all of the RM3G, shotgun targets to look like skunks? The thown targets too.

[atvman400]

I still haven't really heard a good reason not to allow higher capacity gear. New shooters can buy 12 round tubes and 40 round mags for the same price as the lower capacity siblings. There is nobody forcing them to buy the short stuff. In fact all the media you see has the high cap stuff.

Yes they can but how many people do you hear about getting into 3-gun without any equipment? Yes some but I'm willing to bet that the majority has an ar and some 30 round mags laying around.

For shotgun you can't buy a 12 round tube stock. The 930(not that i would buy one) or the versamax come with 8 or 9 round tubes. Buying a 12 rounder is extra money to get into the game.

Don't get me wrong I have gotten caught up in the newest and greatest gear craze before and probably won't stop because I do like cool things I just think it can be intimidating for new shooters coming to a match and thinking they have to have all of this new equipment to play the game.

I'm going to play no matter what, the above is just my opinion.

Edited July 26, 2013 by atvman400

[Alaskapopo]

Several major matches, Blue Ridge, Tarheel, Task Force Dagger, Rocky Mountain and now FNH have some sort of magazine size restriction. Some say round counts must be X rounds or less, some restrict length or width, coupled or no coupled.

What's your thoughts on limiting rifle mags to say 30 rounds and shotgun tubes to say 8 rounds?

My 2 cents but its not worth much.

Leave open and tac optics alone.

Change limited so its really limited. Right now its just tac optics minus the scope.

Make limited to where you have to use pump shotguns 9 round in the gun at the start.

Pistols use limited 10 USPSA rules.

Rifles just like limited now irons or 1x optics only no magnification also limit magazines to 30 rounds.

We do that up here and call it Production. its popular and its a non gear race division.

Pat

[Jesse Tischauser]

I still haven't really heard a good reason not to allow higher capacity gear. New shooters can buy 12 round tubes and 40 round mags for the same price as the lower capacity siblings. There is nobody forcing them to buy the short stuff. In fact all the media you see has the high cap stuff.

Yes they can but how many people do you hear about getting into 3-gun without any equipment? Yes some but I'm willing to bet that the majority has an ar and some 30 round mags laying around.

For shotgun you can't buy a 12 round tube stock. The 930(not that i would buy one) or the versamax come with 8 or 9 round tubes. Buying a 12 rounder is extra money to get into the game.

Don't get me wrong I have gotten caught up in the newest and greatest gear craze before and probably won't stop because I do like cool things I just think it can be intimidating for new shooters coming to a match and thinking they have to have all of this new equipment to play the game.

I'm going to play no matter what, the above is just my opinion.

You are correct!

I forgot about the new "3 gun ready" shotguns and their tiny little tubes.

[Jesse Tischauser]

Several major matches, Blue Ridge, Tarheel, Task Force Dagger, Rocky Mountain and now FNH have some sort of magazine size restriction. Some say round counts must be X rounds or less, some restrict length or width, coupled or no coupled.

What's your thoughts on limiting rifle mags to say 30 rounds and shotgun tubes to say 8 rounds?

My 2 cents but its not worth much.

Leave open and tac optics alone.

Change limited so its really limited. Right now its just tac optics minus the scope.

Make limited to where you have to use pump shotguns 9 round in the gun at the start.

Pistols use limited 10 USPSA rules.

Rifles just like limited now irons or 1x optics only no magnification also limit magazines to 30 rounds.

We do that up here and call it Production. its popular and its a non gear race division.

Pat

That's a great idea! Nobody likes the limited guys anyways!!! Lets mess with their kit not ours. Edited July 26, 2013 by Jesse Tischauser

[EkuJustice]

The cost of the "high capacity mags/tubes" shouldn't be an issue. The Nordic tube costs the same regardless of the length of the tube. the 40 round mags are just a couple bucks higher than the 30 rounders and even the mag extensions for the Pmags are not that expensive. We shouldn't limit out equipment based on what the new shooter may have laying around the house that he can use to get started. Where would you draw the line. No compensators and only GI triggers on the AR because that's what the guy pulling his box stock DPMS he has 700 bucks in out to try a match. This is like any sport it can be cheap to get into or it can be quite costly to get into. It shouldn't be limited for what the new shooter may have laying around

[Alaskapopo]

Several major matches, Blue Ridge, Tarheel, Task Force Dagger, Rocky Mountain and now FNH have some sort of magazine size restriction. Some say round counts must be X rounds or less, some restrict length or width, coupled or no coupled.

What's your thoughts on limiting rifle mags to say 30 rounds and shotgun tubes to say 8 rounds?

My 2 cents but its not worth much.

Leave open and tac optics alone.

Change limited so its really limited. Right now its just tac optics minus the scope.

Make limited to where you have to use pump shotguns 9 round in the gun at the start.

Pistols use limited 10 USPSA rules.

Rifles just like limited now irons or 1x optics only no magnification also limit magazines to 30 rounds.

We do that up here and call it Production. its popular and its a non gear race division.

Pat

That's a great idea! Nobody likes the limited guys anyways!!! Lets mess with their kit not ours.

It works up here and people like it. No one has complained that we don't have traditional limited. Plus it just makes more sense. Standard limited is still a gear race the only thing saving you money is not having to buy an expensive optic for the rifle. Also up here production what we replaced limited with is nearly as popular as tac optics. Tell me where its like that any other place.

Pat

[Tacticalk9]

Several major matches, Blue Ridge, Tarheel, Task Force Dagger, Rocky Mountain and now FNH have some sort of magazine size restriction. Some say round counts must be X rounds or less, some restrict length or width, coupled or no coupled.

What's your thoughts on limiting rifle mags to say 30 rounds and shotgun tubes to say 8 rounds?

My 2 cents but its not worth much.

Leave open and tac optics alone.

Change limited so its really limited. Right now its just tac optics minus the scope.

Make limited to where you have to use pump shotguns 9 round in the gun at the start.

Pistols use limited 10 USPSA rules.

Rifles just like limited now irons or 1x optics only no magnification also limit magazines to 30 rounds.

We do that up here and call it Production. its popular and its a non gear race division.

Pat

That's a great idea! Nobody likes the limited guys anyways!!! Lets mess with their kit not ours.

It works up here and people like it. No one has complained that we don't have traditional limited. Plus it just makes more sense. Standard limited is still a gear race the only thing saving you money is not having to buy an expensive optic for the rifle. Also up here production what we replaced limited with is nearly as popular as tac optics. Tell me where its like that any other place.

Pat

Im hoping (if it went down like that) it will make limited even more unpopular, maybe i can get a few wins in then.