Looking at the timer to see if all shots were recorded?

[Coach]

I was reading Frontsight about Handgun nationals, and the part about Bob Vogel's run seeming fast so a check of the timer demonstrated that not all the shots were recorded. They were not so Vogel reshot the course of fire. Is this correct application of the rules?

[Singlestack]

Its not the way I would apply them. I'm only concerned with making sure I catch the last shot. I don't see any rule to support a reshoot for the timer not catching all the shots. If I was unsure about catching the last shot or the timer got hit with something and recorded a longer time, reshoot. I make a habit of looking at the timer to insure I caught the last shot and to insure I know what the time was in case the timer picks up something else.

[Jadeslade]

Its not the way I would apply them. I'm only concerned with making sure I catch the last shot. I don't see any rule to support a reshoot for the timer not catching all the shots. If I was unsure about catching the last shot or the timer got hit with something and recorded a longer time, reshoot. I make a habit of looking at the timer to insure I caught the last shot and to insure I know what the time was in case the timer picks up something else.

How do you know you caught the last shot?

[Flexmoney]

Everybody gets a hard-on about the timer not being a shot counter.

B.S.

That is exactly what it does. It records shots. Plain and simple.

Funny how we expect it to record the last shot...and we often trust that...but we don't trust it to record the others?

Of course, the RO needs to have the timer in the proper place to record any shot worth recording. And, I know that there are instances where I am really only going after getting the last shot.

That said...the timer not having all the shots on it is not, in itself, is not grounds for a reshoot. I examine the evidence and make a determination.

[Jadeslade]

Everybody gets a hard-on about the timer not being a shot counter.

B.S.

That is exactly what it does. It records shots. Plain and simple.

Funny how we expect it to record the last shot...and we often trust that...but we don't trust it to record the others?

Of course, the RO needs to have the timer in the proper place to record any shot worth recording. And, I know that there are instances where I am really only going after getting the last shot.

That said...the timer not having all the shots on it is not, in itself, is not grounds for a reshoot. I examine the evidence and make a determination.

The timer runs....as the shot is fired the timer marks it and the timer keeps running...so even if the timer doesn't pick up a few shots (around a barrel or something), the timer still marches on and then if you are standing next to shooter and you know he's done-you can be pretty sure that's the time of last shot and the total elapsed time is correct, is that what you are saying? What evidence would make you want to offer a reshoot?

[racerba]

What evidence would make you want to offer a reshoot?

It's a 32 round course. Every other GMs in the same division are shooting it around 18 sec. Rob runs it in 10 sec. and the timer shows 24 shots. I would call for a reshoot.

[Gary Stevens]

Its not the way I would apply them. I'm only concerned with making sure I catch the last shot. I don't see any rule to support a reshoot for the timer not catching all the shots. If I was unsure about catching the last shot or the timer got hit with something and recorded a longer time, reshoot. I make a habit of looking at the timer to insure I caught the last shot and to insure I know what the time was in case the timer picks up something else.

How do you know you caught the last shot?

You know by watching it register on the timer. If the RO does his/her job it is almost always possible to watch the last shot record on the timer.

While the last shot is usually the most important shot, today they are all important. In the case of a shooter not being able to complete the course, it is scored as shot with the time on the timer. If the shooter is unable to engage the last target, let's say number 9, but you have missed the time on targets 6-8, then the time recorded would be from target 5. This would cause a reshoot and while the affected shooter would be happy, the rest of his/her competition may not be.

[Nik Habicht]

Its not the way I would apply them. I'm only concerned with making sure I catch the last shot. I don't see any rule to support a reshoot for the timer not catching all the shots. If I was unsure about catching the last shot or the timer got hit with something and recorded a longer time, reshoot. I make a habit of looking at the timer to insure I caught the last shot and to insure I know what the time was in case the timer picks up something else.

How do you know you caught the last shot?

It's easy to keep an eye on the timer if you hold it in the right place. Really no different than glancing at the speedometer of a car while driving.....

[Nik Habicht]

Funny how we expect it to record the last shot...and we often trust that...but we don't trust it to record the others?

A timer's not a shot counter. (Well, it's not always a reliable shot counter --- and ROs need to understand how to properly use the tool....)

At the end of a stage, I'm looking for the timer to roll over when the shooter fires their last shot --- that way I know for certain. I also tend to look at it early in the run, and occasionally glance at it if a shooter's planted --- so that I can be sure I get a final shot in the case of a malfunction. I have had stages where I couldn't get the timer in position for a string of shots in the beginning or middle....

[Coach]

As an RO I am to have an accurate time. So I know the last shot registered as I watched it change while the last shot was fired. Another shooter who saw the run disputes the time. The timer only shows 30 shots instead of 32 and I know all the shots were fired and I know I caught the last one. Can the dispute be arbitrated and can it be won in arbitration since all the shots did not register on the timer?

Seems like this could lead to possibly a large number of reshoots.

Edited January 7, 2010 by Coach

[Flexmoney]

Everybody gets a hard-on about the timer not being a shot counter.

B.S.

That is exactly what it does. It records shots. Plain and simple.

Funny how we expect it to record the last shot...and we often trust that...but we don't trust it to record the others?

A timer's not a shot counter. (Well, it's not always a reliable shot counter --- and ROs need to understand how to properly use the tool....)

That is just what has been repeated over and over and many believe it to be true. The fact is, the timer functions to record shots. That is what it does. And, every one I have used has a memory function that can be reviewed to show each shot, it's elapsed time, and it's split from the last shot.

It counts shots, and the corresponding time that goes with them.

All of that is evidence that is readily available at the RO's disposal. It's a tool. It's a lot better at counting shots than any RO is.

[Flexmoney]

As an RO I am to have an accurate time. So I know the last shot registered as I watched it change while the last shot was fired. Another shooter who saw the run disputes the time. The timer only shows 30 shots instead of 32 and I know all the shots were fired and I know I caught the last one. Can the dispute be arbitrated and can it be won in arbitration since all the shots did not register on the timer?

Seems like this could lead to possibly a large number of reshoots.

Coach,

That is a straw man argument, really. We can't apply an absolute answer to a question with obvious variables.

I might ask how you know you caught the last shot? But, if you know you caught it, then you caught it. (I'd be figuring out which ones you didn't catch, and why. Are you missing shots behind a wall? Is the battery going bad? Echo cancelling shots out ? )

We all want to give the shooter an accurate time, I am sure.

[Nik Habicht]

Everybody gets a hard-on about the timer not being a shot counter.

B.S.

That is exactly what it does. It records shots. Plain and simple.

Funny how we expect it to record the last shot...and we often trust that...but we don't trust it to record the others?

A timer's not a shot counter. (Well, it's not always a reliable shot counter --- and ROs need to understand how to properly use the tool....)

That is just what has been repeated over and over and many believe it to be true. The fact is, the timer functions to record shots. That is what it does. And, every one I have used has a memory function that can be reviewed to show each shot, it's elapsed time, and it's split from the last shot.

It counts shots, and the corresponding time that goes with them.

All of that is evidence that is readily available at the RO's disposal. It's a tool. It's a lot better at counting shots than any RO is.

Flex,

sorry ---- I'm not just repeating everyone's mantra. I've had enough experiences with crazy stage set-ups, shoot houses, and malfunctioning timers, to realize that it's "shot counting" ability must be verified --- by glancing at the timer as the last shot breaks.....

As an aside --- if timers were so perfect, they'd have a function to allow us to get a different sound or vibration after every tenth shot.....

I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means.....

[Singlestack]

I might ask how you know you caught the last shot? But, if you know you caught it, then you caught it. (I'd be figuring out which ones you didn't catch, and why. Are you missing shots behind a wall? Is the battery going bad? Echo cancelling shots out ? )

We all want to give the shooter an accurate time, I am sure.

I know because I look at the timer as the shooter shoots the shot. I do not care if the timer only shows one shot, as long as its the last one. Why should I be concerned with figuring out which ones it didn't catch? The shooter might have been behind a wall, shooting through a port, etc. Or, I might not have been close enough to catch all the shots. I do not believe in staying right on top of a shooter so I might get too far away for it to pick up all the shots. I make damn sure I'm right on spot at the end to catch the last shot and I look at the timer to insure it does.

(Flexmoney @ Jan 6 2010, 08:27 PM)

Everybody gets a hard-on about the timer not being a shot counter.

B.S.

That is exactly what it does. It records shots. Plain and simple.

I do not see any rule that supports using the timer as a shot counter.

[Flexmoney]

I've had enough experiences with crazy stage set-ups, shoot houses, and malfunctioning timers, to realize that it's "shot counting" ability must be verified...

Which I agree with. (but, it still counts better than an RO)

But, all of the same issues (set-up, malfunctions, etc.) can be said for the timer picking up the last shot as well.

As an aside --- if timers were so perfect, they'd have a function to allow us to get a different sound or vibration after every tenth shot.....

? I've never heard of anybody wanting that, but it would be a simple matter of programing that feature into it...if there was a demand for such. If we can have them programed for PAR times or Comstock Go, then they could be programed to beep after X number of shots (I suppose).

I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means.....

That is what I said.

[Flexmoney]

Why should I be concerned with figuring out which ones it didn't catch? The shooter might have been behind a wall, shooting through a port, etc. Or, I might not have been close enough to catch all the shots. I do not believe in staying right on top of a shooter so I might get too far away for it to pick up all the shots. I make damn sure I'm right on spot at the end to catch the last shot and I look at the timer to insure it does.

Because you might have a faulty timer or a dead battery. You might get the current shooter's time, but if you have a timer issue getting ready to crop up on you, it's best to nip it in the bud.

If it's a shot behind a wall or through a port, you need to know that as well. Perhaps you can get in a better position to catch those shots on future competitors. If a gun goes down and the competitor has to stop before completing the rest of the cof, then you need a time for the real "last shot". (not what you expect to be the last shot)

Like you, I prefer to give the shooters some room to roam as well. Sometimes that might mean taking a chance of not getting every shot on the timer... That is usually a choice of the lesser of two evils (getting in the shooters way, for example).

[Tom D]

As an aside --- if timers were so perfect, they'd have a function to allow us to get a different sound or vibration after every tenth shot.....

In all reality, what good would this do? I can't see any place where it would help, you start with 11 in the gun.

I know you can only have 10 rounds in the mag for production and if you shoot more you go to open, but the vibration at 10 rounds assumes that you shoot 10 rounds every time before you reload. Am I missing something?

Tom

[Singlestack]

I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means.....

I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means.....

That is what I said.

[devil's advocate hat on]

How do you reconcile that with the rule book?

[Flexmoney]

I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means.....

I'm all in favor of backing a timer up (reviewing the evidence so to speak) but it's up to the RO to decipher what it means.....

That is what I said.

[devil's advocate hat on]

How do you reconcile that with the rule book?

You might want to crack that rule book open! You gotta do the leg work to play Devil's Advocate.

How do you even justify using a timer ?!?!?

I don't even think you will find the mention of a timer in the book...except under the definition of Quarter Master.

(9.10 covers "Official Time")

I've got a stop watch on my Timex.

[CocoBolo]

I just passed my recert test. Sorry rules don't permit using the time to count shots. I got to do that in my head, what I count in my head is the correct number no matter what the timer says. I've only caught 1 12th shot by a Production correction Open shooter.

Towards the end of the run I always watch to make sure the last shot shows when made, else I call for a reshoot as there is no time.

Vogel manned up and reshot, I've met him a time or two seems like a nice guy. Both times his para had neausa and was upchucking.

[BSeevers]

Timers register echos indoors as shots and probably would outside in right conditions so I don't think you could use them 100% as shot counters

[Flexmoney]

I just passed my recert test.

Good job.

Sorry rules don't permit using the time to count shots. I got to do that in my head, what I count in my head is the correct number no matter what the timer says.

Which rule do you want to quote for counting shots in your head?

Vogel manned up and reshot, I've met him a time or two seems like a nice guy. Both times his para had neausa and was upchucking.

Bob Vogel a very nice guy. He shoots a Glock though, not a Para. You might be confusing him with Todd Jarrett ?

[Flexmoney]

Timers register echos indoors as shots and probably would outside in right conditions so I don't think you could use them 100% as shot counters

Right. And, you have to watch for the same issue when recording the last shot as well.

We had that come up at the Ohio Section/IPSC Nats this year. Luckily, our CRO (thanks Scott) was on the ball and caught it. That prevented the competitor (Kay M.) from having to do a reshoot.

After that, I had an extensive talk with one (real) pro shooter who has been involved with one of the timer companies for years. He suggested that the timer (not his brand) might have a bad microphone (possibly due to being used around some rifle blast). He recommended that we switch out timers. Which was the right thing to do. Wall echo or microphone...the potential issue went away.

[Nik Habicht]

As an aside --- if timers were so perfect, they'd have a function to allow us to get a different sound or vibration after every tenth shot.....

In all reality, what good would this do? I can't see any place where it would help, you start with 11 in the gun.

I know you can only have 10 rounds in the mag for production and if you shoot more you go to open, but the vibration at 10 rounds assumes that you shoot 10 rounds every time before you reload. Am I missing something?

Tom

Yeah --- I was being a smartass! :roflol:

You'd really need a button to tap at every reload too.....

[Nik Habicht]

I've had enough experiences with crazy stage set-ups, shoot houses, and malfunctioning timers, to realize that it's "shot counting" ability must be verified...

Which I agree with. (but, it still counts better than an RO)

Man, clearly you have little experience with German ROs ---- we learned to count without using our fingers and toes.... :roflol:

I've never not heard a shot on the range --- and regularly count shots as a shooter moves through a stage.....

I've had timers not hear (register) shots though....