More than the range commands,

[elynch2007]

As a RO, I do not talk to or ask the shooter questions most of the time. At a level II 3-gun match my stage was a handgun/rifle stage, where the handgun was loaded and placed in a box on a table and the rifle was at low ready in a prop that was to helicopter, sitting on a bench seat. Before the make ready I reminded the shooters that the gun does not have to be loaded at the Make ready command, they have until just before the Standby command before the gun needed to be loaded. I only did this because of the unusal start position in a tight area. It also gave the shooter all options for sight pictures and how they could best get a feel for their choice of position on the bench seat.

If you really watch the shooter closely, you will know when they are ready to start and be given the Are you ready command.

[EkuJustice]

I would say if you ask ask before the make ready. I will usually tell the RO if I plan on doing something that is out of the norm especially if the way he positioned himself for other shooters would cause an issue. Reather do that than risk running an RO over and then worry about muzzle control because he was in the way.

[matt2ace]

When I RO, there is no chatting, no warnings......just MAKE READY when the shooter is standing in the start position. All the warnings and chatting should happen during the walk-through. I make the 'going hot' command before the first shooter is up to the start position and possibly

after a long pause, but never when a shooter is standing at the start position. For any new or inexperienced shooters, we discuss the stage during the walk-through to assure they undertand safety issues.

It's great to chat, advise and help a shooter during a match.......just not on start line of a stage.

[nphd2000]

"I make the 'going hot' command before the first shooter is up to the start position"

Is "going hot" given beofre every shooter if you are in alternating bays?

What if the shooter is waiting at the start position when you return from scoring and the "going hot" has not been issued?

Edited December 31, 2009 by nphd2000

[Flyin40]

"I make the 'going hot' command before the first shooter is up to the start position"

Is "going hot" given beofre every shooter if you are in alternating bays?

What if the shooter is waiting at the start position when you return from scoring and the "going hot" has not been issued?

Going hot is not a range command. Its given to let everyone know to make sure earmuffs are on as a courtesy.

Flyin

[nphd2000]

"I make the 'going hot' command before the first shooter is up to the start position"

Is "going hot" given beofre every shooter if you are in alternating bays?

What if the shooter is waiting at the start position when you return from scoring and the "going hot" has not been issued?

Going hot is not a range command. Its given to let everyone know to make sure earmuffs are on as a courtesy.

Flyin

"Going hot is not a range command. Its given to let everyone know to make sure earmuffs are on as a courtesy."

That is the whole point of this discussion.

Answer my scenario.

What if you give the "courtesy" call and the shooter is at the start positon and he draws to "Make ready"? Aren't "eyes and ears" part of the safety of our sport? Isn't it the RO's job to make sure things are safe? Is it the RO's fault because he was "protecting" the other competitors and "looker on-ners"? Shouldn't the shooter be aware of what was said? Safety is the major concern so I'm sorry if I messed up your Mo-Jo by saying "going hot" but when shooting multiple stages on 1 range other things may need to be said.

I guess this is why I don't RO much.

If the

[Flyin40]

"Going hot is not a range command. Its given to let everyone know to make sure earmuffs are on as a courtesy."

That is the whole point of this discussion.

Answer my scenario.

What if you give the "courtesy" call and the shooter is at the start positon and he draws to "Make ready"? Aren't "eyes and ears" part of the safety of our sport? Isn't it the RO's job to make sure things are safe? Is it the RO's fault because he was "protecting" the other competitors and "looker on-ners"? Shouldn't the shooter be aware of what was said? Safety is the major concern so I'm sorry if I messed up your Mo-Jo by saying "going hot" but when shooting multiple stages on 1 range other things may need to be said.

I guess this is why I don't RO much.

Not sure if you read the entire thread of not but it your questions has already been answered and your senario already happened. I suggest rereading the thread again.

Its everyones job to be safe, not just the RO's. The attitude of Sorry if I messed up your "Mojo" but too bad is not the right attitude we need on the range. We are all there to have fun and be safe so if you know ahead of time that Saying going Hot with a shooter at the line and your next to them as an RO could cause problems why in the world would you do it. The "Make Ready", if announced loud enough does the exact same thing. Have you taken the RO class?? All this stuff is covered in the class and I suggest you take it if you have not taken it yet. We need more certified RO's.

Flyin

[nphd2000]

I mean none of these post to be antagonistic. I am just wondering if anybody see's this from the RO's perspective.

Oh, I did go back and read. You were a shooter and I was an RO and our scenarios were the same. As the RO I felt bad that I said "going hot" and the shooter heard "make ready". As the shooter, did you feel bad?

When I am the shooter I listen for what the RO is saying. When I step to the line I am all ears and listen for "Make ready". When I fire my last shot I stand there and wait for the RO to say "If you are finished........" most guys eject their mag, flip the last round in the air, catch it and look at the RO. I wait for the command. I do have to admit sometimes the RO's look at me as if someting is wrong if I stop shooting and stand there. Of course I am only a C shooter.

Does the shooter ever share the blame in this scenario?

BTW I never said "if I messed up your MoJo too bad"

Edited December 31, 2009 by nphd2000

[Flexmoney]

Kevin,

I always ask them if they can use the search page!

Now thats funny.

Shooter do you know how to use the search page on Enos.com forum

Make ready.

Habit.

[Flexmoney]

Here is what I have posted on another thread (there have been a few on this topic):

I seldom use "Going Hot", for the same reasons. It's not a range command, and it confuses people.

Anytime that I am saying anything other than the range commands, I want to in front of the shooter and facing him/her. That seems to negate any confusion. Then, if I want to use something other than a range command (usually to get the attention of the gallery), I feel OK in doing so.

When I give the "Make Ready", I try to do so clearly and loudly. Everybody in the shooting bay ought to be able to hear it and know what is going on.

I'd suggest paging back through that other thread and reading what Troy has to say as well.

[nphd2000]

I understand about using the search function and finding past answers but thats no fun. This is more like a discussion with people now, not just looking back at other peoples thoughts from the past.

I was going to suggest standing in front of the shooter but thought that would open up a whole new can of worms.

I'll stop posting now, but I had a great scenario in my head about someone losing an eye.

[Flyin40]

I mean none of these post to be antagonistic. I am just wondering if anybody see's this from the RO's perspective.

Yes, I would say most hear are looking at it from an RO's perspective because I would bet most are RO's or at the very least worked as RO's but it is a way of letting other RO's/Shooters know what to look for and how to a better RO from a shooters perspective.

Oh, I did go back and read. You were a shooter and I was an RO and our scenarios were the same. As the RO I felt bad that I said "going hot" and the shooter heard "make ready". As the shooter, did you feel bad?

I think the point isn't to put blame on anyone but rather avoid the situation all together. As an RO you like saying "Going Hot" and from your post you intention is clear. Your looking out for everyone for safety's sake which is a good thing. But in doing so you could also be confusing people. So how do you protect the gallery and not confuse a shooter?? Flex's idea is great. If you have some guys not paying attention because they are B'sing(we all do this from time to time) about whatever and you as an RO notice they don't have ears on and you want to let them know I think I would use Flex's idea. There isn't any room for confusion there. There are several ways that have been mentioned that would work. I just don't like the idea of an RO preparing a shooter then yelling Going Hot right next to the shooter. If the RO on the clipboard calls out the next shooter then yell Going Hot then before an RO is even around the shooter.

When I am the shooter I listen for what the RO is saying. When I step to the line I am all ears and listen for "Make ready". When I fire my last shot I stand there and wait for the RO to say "If you are finished........" most guys eject their mag, flip the last round in the air, catch it and look at the RO. I wait for the command. I do have to admit sometimes the RO's look at me as if someting is wrong if I stop shooting and stand there. Of course I am only a C shooter.

Nothing wrong with the way your doing it and it doesn't matter what class your in when it comes to safety. I double plug and if the RO is 3 feet away and talking normally I can't hear them, its nothing more than a muffled sound and I always let the RO know that I double plug so they talk loud enough that I can hear them. I bought the plugs that are molded in your ears at Nationals and they block out alot. Throw a set of ear muffs in there and I can't hear anything.

Does the shooter ever share the blame in this scenario?

In that senario I don't blame anyone. Nothing was intentional on either part but it did happen and my point to this whole thing is how can we avoid these situations all together. Just dicussing it allows people to see everyone else's view or see a perspective that they hadn't thought about before.

If someone spends the money on gas, hotel, match fee, ammo and practiced for this major and this happened it wouldn't be a good thing for the RO or the shooter. I'm sure the RO would feel bad, most do when they have to DQ someone.

You can keep posting, its good discussion. We want everyone to leave the range the same way they came but as RO's we want to make sure we are doing the right things so everyone can have a good time and go home safe.

If as an RO you see something that is safe then address it whether is the shooter or the gallery but also take into account that the shooter is there. For me if something comes up and needs to be addressed I first let the shooter know to hold on and if its after Make ready I'll have them unload and show clear. After whatever happened is taken care of I'll tell the shooter to take a few minutes if they need too. Almost always, unless its a new shooter everyone takes the extra time. That way if I did mess up their mojo because of something that couldn't wait to be addressed I know that I gave them time to get their head straight before I gave them the Make Ready.

Well its about 12:15 and its 2010 so Happy New Year to everyone. I thought I was going stuck working a double shift at the prison tonight but ended up I didn't have to stay. I can't imagine how loud the yelling and all the noise the inmates are making right now.

Flyin

[BBoyd]

if I don't know them I ask them if they are Joe Smith the next shooter and look at the score keeper to confirm, then I give the commands and don't talk about anything else. That keeps someone from shooting and scoring on the wrong scoresheet.

[Gary Stevens]

You can seldom be absolutely sure that everyone at a match speaks English. Shooters do, generally, know the sequence of the range commands. They know that the first words they hear should be "Make Ready". Sometimes even though they do speak English they are in a state of readiness that they are ready to go on the first words which they anticipate will be the first range command.

If you choose to participate in pre-command banter, such as "Going Hot", then you also accept the responsibility for administering the DQ if the shooter messes up because of your choice.

Yes it is a clear mistake on the shooters part, but you should also ask yourself would that mistake have been made if you had simply issued the range commands and not decided to ad lib commands that are not in the rulebook.

Happy New Year.

[Jadeslade]

I understand about using the search function and finding past answers but thats no fun. This is more like a discussion with people now, not just looking back at other peoples thoughts from the past.

I was going to suggest standing in front of the shooter but thought that would open up a whole new can of worms.

I'll stop posting now, but I had a great scenario in my head about someone losing an eye.

You have to stand closer. The gun can not come up then. As a shooter, that is what I prefer if the RO is going to talk. Get in front of me like Flex says. When I go to the line, I look at the RO and make sure I am getting Make Ready.

[Morphire]

Great thread! I've learned a bunch just reading through it. I do tend to agree that a fresh discussion takes into account today's thoughts and views. Even if a search was reviewed, I'd still like to get perspective on what people think today or any new views that may have surfaced. Okay off my soap box.

Reading through this I can see a definite separation between the views of the very experienced Master and GM shooters and long standing CROs and the rest of us. =] I also see a difference between the needs of a local Level I match and those of a Level II or III match.

Big matches tend to put a CRO in front of a lot of shooters they are not familiar with. They don't have history enough to know what their preferences are so that is further persuasion to maintain a strict adherence to the Range Commands specified in the rules only. I think all of us agree that there shouldn't be anything other than the specific range commands once Make Ready is given. The question comes up then whether any conversation is needed before hand. Well at a Level II/III match, the CRO is usually matted to a coterie of RO's that cover reset, scoring, crowd management, and safety. My admittedly inexperienced self seems to think that the Scoring RO calls the shooter to the line by name and confirms that shooter called matches the score sheet on the clipboard. No conversation necessary from the CRO. The shooter enters the start area and the CRO visually checks with his RO's for the thumbs up that they are ready and that downrange is clear. Again nothing verbal. The CRO then gives Make Ready as their first communication to the ready shooter. Managing keeping the CRO safe and in the proper place to manage the shooter is the CRO's responsibility.

Asking the shooter which way they are going to turn just sets the CRO up for reliance on information that may or may not be realized by the fact of the situation once the buzzer goes off. Not knowing seems to be a better starting place for the CRO so they are forced to pay as close attention as possible. This is something new I've come to realize just with reading through this thread so thank you to everyone for the excellent lesson. =]

I see the "Going Hot" statement to be part of announcing the end of the 5 minute review after telling everyone to clear the range. Say it once and not again.

Local Level I matches usually have the RO's embedded as part of the squad. They tend to know the shooters and can establish what is preferred. They don't tend to have no more than one other RO that is covering scoring so I tend to agree that flexibility is more the norm in that situation.

[Alan Adamson]

Kevin,

As always, an excellent summary and post... Thanks for netting this down to what the consensus seems to parrot.

Alan

[Paul Burtchell]

You mean "Grip it & rip it", is not an official range command???

Seriously, I believe every USPSA member should take the NROI Range Officer class. Even if you never intend to RO a match there is a wealth of info. to be learned and it WILL make you a better competitor.

Edited January 3, 2010 by baerburtchell