Stage Design

[atlscrog]

All,

These two stages are my initial successful attempts that at stage design. I've tried several ideas and these are two (very similar) stages that shooters seemed to enjoy. We have run each of these stages a couple of times. They usually end up being slightly different based upon available props and and the width of the bay.

The idea behind each is freestyle, movement, choices, 6-round neutral and asymmetrical.

Freestyle - shooters can shoot it anyway they want; use props to restrict unsafe or unwanted actions

Movement and choices - Give shooters the option of taking difficult shots from one or two positions or force movement for easier shots.

6-round neutral - Make it 6-round neutral without being obvious,

Asymmetrical - I am personally tired of everything being symmetrical.

I also like stages that are 21 rounds or more as this encourages Limited shooters to reload, and Production shooters to reload more than once if they make up a shot.

The first stage, Side Start, has shooters starting of to the side in the middle of the stage. The shooter will have to back up to get at some point, but has the option of shooting from the barricade and then backing up, or backing up and then shooting front-to-back.

The second stage, Choices, let's Open shooters draw on the steel, take a step to the left and shoot the rest of the stage from one position while most other shooters are encouraged to move. It's difficult (for me) to show on a 2D ppt slide, but the single target on the right behind the barrel has a no shoot in front of it to discourage a 180 violation. Also, the start position can be moved around. The last time we shot it the start position was outside box A, facing downrange, toes on marks on the outside right corner. This worked well as shooters stepped in A and drew on the steel plate.

Thanks,

Scott

choices.ppt

Edited December 10, 2009 by atlscrog

[LPatterson]

First off why 6 round neutral? Revo shooters are a different division and only Jerry or Cliff are likely to win the stage.

In side-start I don't see that anyway and you have eliminated free style with a box and 2 shooting areas. Eliminate the box, change to within the shooting areas only. If you want to force backing up then start in B or start in the middle of A or to the end facing to the right, Leave the barricade/barrels so the targets can be shot only within the first step into area B. Be careful with barrels and target placements as you can have ricochets.

Choices I like much better as there are several starting positions, forced backup, turn then draw and/or both.

Either one would be better as one big shooting area and limit the shots with location and props. Barricades are better than sticking no-shoots in the middle of no-where as they are obstructions rather than penalties.

[Matt P.]

I just had to post.

I hate box to box shooting. we need to get to the "freestyle" portion of shooting. a Shooting "Area" (IMO) should encompass the entire stage. a great stage is one that can start anywhere and truly offer a different place to start.

[atlscrog]

Thank you both for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

You both touched on issues for which I have not been able to find an definitive answer. I've scoured the rulebook and club program guide to no avail.

The questions are:

1) What is the rule/guidance on props within the shooting area? For example, can wall supports or a barrel be within a shooting area?

2) Regarding start position, I asked a local match director this question last week. He agreed that people should be able to start anywhere they like, but in three+ years of shooting I've never seen a "start where you like" stage. Even at this year's Nationals the starting position was defined.

Good point regarding freestyle; My way of thinking was/is to get away from stage descriptions that dictate shooting positions and let the props do that.

Also I like your point about barricades vs. no-shoots.

Scott

P.S. Regarding 6-round neutral, I've been shooting revo this year and am tired of standing reloads

Edited December 10, 2009 by atlscrog

[Dan Burwell]

1) What is the rule/guidance on props within the shooting area? For example, can wall supports or a barrel be within a shooting area?

2) Regarding start position, I asked a local match director this question last week. He agreed that people should be able to start anywhere they like, but in three+ years of shooting I've never seen a "start where you like" stage. Even at this year's Nationals the starting position was defined.

1. you can put anything you want in the shooting area, but since it is in the shooting area shooters are allowed to use it for support.

2. That is one of the best way I have found to screw with shooters: "Start position: standing in shooting area" did that at the last match on a 32 round field course. people were spending half their walk through figuring out where they wanted to start.

[Chris iliff]

Yep, those 32 round field courses with no start position defined can be a pickle to figure...... I like them.

[open17]

BILL_CROC_BAY.DOC

Here ya go. 6 round Neutral, start anywhere, no boxes, asymetrical.

Yes--It's a real stage. Shot at the Crazy Croc 2008. There were 8 of us on the Revo squad.

Edited December 10, 2009 by open17

[atlscrog]

BILL_CROC_BAY.DOC

Here ya go. 6 round Neutral, start anywhere, no boxes, asymetrical.

Yes--It's a real stage. Shot at the Crazy Croc 2008. There were 8 of us on the Revo squad.

Love it, thanks!

[LPatterson]

I just had to post.

I hate box to box shooting. we need to get to the "freestyle" portion of shooting. a Shooting "Area" (IMO) should encompass the entire stage. a great stage is one that can start anywhere and truly offer a different place to start.

Won't work if there is a steel target on the stage. (2.1.3)

Being able to start anywhere on any open stage could create problems by allowing a shooter to start within muzzle blast range of a target. (I'm gonna get that .7 draw this time)

It is possible to have a good stage and yet force a starting location or position (facing uprange wrists above respective shoulders), the use of fault lines can allow or force where a shot is taken (here in a cramped position or there 20 yards downrange in the open as a moving shot).

Placing a bunch of targets in a bay and saying "start anywhere and shoot 'em as you see 'em" is being lazy.

[Dan Burwell]

Placing a bunch of targets in a bay and saying "start anywhere and shoot 'em as you see 'em" is being lazy.

I'll disagree, they are probably the hardest kind to set-up and keep them legal. They require a lot of thought, walls, and/or no shoots.

Yes you could be lazy doing that but it likely wouldn't come out a legal stage.

[wileecoyote37]

I designing stages for a level 2 match with a looney tunes theme. Anyone got any good deas?

[Nik Habicht]

Placing a bunch of targets in a bay and saying "start anywhere and shoot 'em as you see 'em" is being lazy.

Sorry, I'm gonna have to call BS on that. That could be said by anyone about any stage.....

The truth is that it's all about the execution. Start Anywhere --- in the free fire zone --- and shoot 'em as you see 'em allows people choices. Proper use of fault lines and vision barriers eliminates steel distance problems, shoot throughs, sweet spots and other problems. It comes down to stage design -- as on every stage. If it's properly built, it works like every other stage....

[LPatterson]

I'm glad to see people upset with my statement.

Placing a bunch of targets in a bay and saying "start anywhere and shoot 'em as you see 'em" is being lazy.

But it was in reply to this one.

(Matt P. @ Dec 10 2009, 12:17 PM)

I just had to post.

I hate box to box shooting. we need to get to the "freestyle" portion of shooting. a Shooting "Area" (IMO) should encompass the entire stage. a great stage is one that can start anywhere and truly offer a different place to start.

I don't see anything in it about a free fire zone or proper use of fault lines and vision barriers, it says encompass the entire stage. To me that means being able to run anywhere he wanted.

My personal feeling is that start anywhere rewards the person with the best "gaming" skills. So they can find that "ideal" spot to start so as not to have to test their weaker skills. Proper stage design should be a test of shooting skills that test every shooter the same.

Edited December 12, 2009 by LPatterson

[Dan Burwell]

LeRoy, honest I am not picking on you.

My personal feeling is that start anywhere rewards the person with the best "gaming" skills. So they can find that "ideal" spot to start so as not to have to test their weaker skills.

Yes this is what USPSA should be about figuring out how shoot the stage to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

In my book "gaming" is the same as "tactics". Isn't this what "tactics" is all about... "Finding a way to achieve your goals in the most efficient manner with the least amount of risk."

a test of shooting skills that test every shooter the same.

Sorry, that would be IDPA, I shoot IDPA and like it for this reason.

[open17]

My personal feeling is that start anywhere rewards the person with the best "gaming" skills. So they can find that "ideal" spot to start so as not to have to test their weaker skills. Proper stage design should be a test of shooting skills that test every shooter the same.

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted

to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot

targets on an “as and when visible” basis. Courses of fire must not

require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or

stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created,

and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel

a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances

Standard exercises and Classifiers test physical skills, and "test every shooter the same".

Freestyle courses of fire also test mental skills. They ALSO "test every shooter the same".

Nobody is making changes to the COF between shooters. It's the same targets in the same

location with the same challenges for everyone.

[LPatterson]

LeRoy, honest I am not picking on you.

My personal feeling is that start anywhere rewards the person with the best "gaming" skills. So they can find that "ideal" spot to start so as not to have to test their weaker skills.

Yes this is what USPSA should be about figuring out how shoot the stage to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

In my book "gaming" is the same as "tactics". Isn't this what "tactics" is all about... "Finding a way to achieve your goals in the most efficient manner with the least amount of risk."

a test of shooting skills that test every shooter the same.

Sorry, that would be IDPA, I shoot IDPA and like it for this reason.

Dan, I seldom take things personal and I don't believe USPSA should be about tactics or thing tactical that is what IDPA is supposed to be about.

I'm being taking to task about this but I am a hard headed Kraut from Missouri so my object is to try to make you see things from my standpoint. First I would like to see if we can some common points of view. What I am against is not having any control over where the shooter can move. I am against the entire stage is a free fire zone even if vision barriers are used because I don't want you at muzzle blast range. So if some sort of shooting area is established and the shooter is allowed to pick a starting point, it will almost always be to their strength. What I am proposing is that starting points be use to test all skills.

My comments to the OP were to use starting positions that would force shooters to use a skill not normally practiced. It is my feeling from watching local matches and a couple of Nationals that GM or even M shooters will win the match BECAUSE they are the ones that practice their weaknesses. I would like to see stages that test these people to their max instead of being able to find a starting position for their strengths because I might not be on their squad to see where they started. I have not been to a Nationals or Area match that said start wherever you want, when I do I MIGHT change my mind.

[boz1911]

Thank you both for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

You both touched on issues for which I have not been able to find an definitive answer. I've scoured the rulebook and club program guide to no avail.

The questions are:

1) What is the rule/guidance on props within the shooting area? For example, can wall supports or a barrel be within a shooting area?

2) Regarding start position, I asked a local match director this question last week. He agreed that people should be able to start anywhere they like, but in three+ years of shooting I've never seen a "start where you like" stage. Even at this year's Nationals the starting position was defined.

Good point regarding freestyle; My way of thinking was/is to get away from stage descriptions that dictate shooting positions and let the props do that.

Also I like your point about barricades vs. no-shoots.

Scott

P.S. Regarding 6-round neutral, I've been shooting revo this year and am tired of standing reloads

Scott, Kudos for venturing in to the world of stage design. We need fresh blood and always welcome new ideas, use the forum at will to throw out stages and don't be offended when someone finds a flaw. Stage design is not for everyone, myself included. Keep it up.

[atlscrog]

Scott, Kudos for venturing in to the world of stage design. We need fresh blood and always welcome new ideas, use the forum at will to throw out stages and don't be offended when someone finds a flaw. Stage design is not for everyone, myself included. Keep it up.

Thanks Boz!

[atlscrog]

We shot one that looked much like this on Saturday. I can't say that people liked it, but they definitely found it interesting. For my own part, I couldn't figure out how to shoot it.

The pasters were definitely blown off the target behind the barrel; live and learn

On my squad, two shooters shot through the barrels and did well.

not_baseball.ppt

Edited December 14, 2009 by atlscrog

[LPatterson]

Shooting Revo I would have started far enough left to see all of the A zone on the target behind the barrel, take the 2 partials then close full target on the move. RL head shot, head shot, center A zone partial. RL left partial, right partial upside down target. RL run to the right until you could see all the A zone of the right target then swing back to the plate. YMMV depending on how well you can shoot on the move.