furyalecto Posted December 10, 2009 Share Posted December 10, 2009 I would like to try Airsoft training, but the best place would be my basement. Is this relatively safe for green gas powered airsoft? A more specific question is: Would Bestak Power Green 1000 gas advertised as hfc-22 be OK to use in a basement that contains a furnace? (I could close a door to the room the furnace is in & open a window in the room to be trained in.) My google-fu is weak this morning. I can't seem to find a definitive answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted December 12, 2009 Share Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) Per the NFPA (National Fire Protection Assn) 704 standard, propane is classified as a red diamond (fire hazard) of 4 - "Will rapidly or completely vaporize at normal atmospheric pressure and temperature, or is readily dispersed in air and will burn readily", and the example given is actually of propane. HFC-22, which is chlorodifluoromethane, is classified by the same standard as a 0 - "Will not burn", with the example given being water. So if you're sure it's hfc-22, and not propane, then you're good to go as far as fire hazard goes. Be advised that hfc-22 is becoming less available. As it becomes unavailable, I speculate that some AS gas providing companies may make a switch to other gases. ETA: A little poking around shows that hfc-22 was one of the gasses used in Halon Fire Suppression systems, so if anything, you use that next to your furnace or water heater, you risk putting out the pilot light... Edited December 12, 2009 by kevin c Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furyalecto Posted December 16, 2009 Author Share Posted December 16, 2009 Thanks for the information. I have requested information on the product from the manufacturer & a reseller. It has been a couple of days so I do not know that I am going to get it. Time to try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuck in C Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 At least some of the commercial Green Gas is actually propane rather than HFC-22 as implied by the label. How they get away with this I don't know, as it seems to be a violation of DOT labeling regulations. Actual HFC-22 green gas would be safe to use in a basement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yankee Dog Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 Let me just say that just cause the stuff will not blow up when exposed to flame does not mean it is safe to use in an enclosed space. for example, halon fire suppresion systems work by removing oxigen from the air. As the least I would open the windows and maybe use a fan. be safe. Ask for an MSDS. Yankee dog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 "MSDS"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted December 16, 2009 Share Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) MSDS = Material Safety Data Sheet? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_safety_data_sheet Edited December 16, 2009 by caspian guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furyalecto Posted December 17, 2009 Author Share Posted December 17, 2009 (edited) There have been no replies to requests for MSDS/any info from a couple of sources. If I am reading everything right it kind of looks like green gas is propane no matter who sells it. The HCF-22 appears to be misleading branding. (I could be mistaken. There doesn't appear to be too much regulation) Red gas would be hcfc-22. Not much to be found on HCF-22 as a hazard other than high concentrations as stated by others. This is an MSDS for HCFC-22 http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/CH/chlorodifluoromethane.html For Halon: It looks like Halon 1301 can cause RADS (reactive airway dysfunction syndrome) when a large exposure happens (halon tank discharge.) Large exposures don't seem to always cause RADS in everyone. Small exposures can affect function a small amount usually for a short period of time. I didn't see any extended studies. Interesting. I have worked near or in possible Halon discharge areas the last 16 years. Edited December 17, 2009 by furyalecto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Trainer Posted December 22, 2009 Share Posted December 22, 2009 I would like to try Airsoft training, but the best place would be my basement. Is this relatively safe for green gas powered airsoft?A more specific question is: Would Bestak Power Green 1000 gas advertised as hfc-22 be OK to use in a basement that contains a furnace? (I could close a door to the room the furnace is in & open a window in the room to be trained in.) My google-fu is weak this morning. I can't seem to find a definitive answer. I do the majority of my training in the basement using green gas and I have never had a problem. I have also used propane but stopped due to the smell. I am not saying that there is zero risk, but with the amount of gas released from 10-12 magazines over a 45 minute period or so should be fine. This also is dependent on the size of the space being used to train. Closing the door to the furnace room should be helpful as well. I will post some photos of my training area in the next few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anon Posted December 26, 2009 Share Posted December 26, 2009 (edited) With an adapter, you can run Duster Gas (the type you buy at Sam's Club for blowing out computers) in probably any gun that will run green-gas. Slide weight and spring power will be a deciding factor. I run propane in my magazines in the garage, but now that winter is here, I've installed a natural gas heater in the garage. I switched to duster gas in the mags. The gun still ri=uns fine. The BBs come out a bit slower, but not a big enough deal to worry about it. Indoors, in the basement, I (personally) wouldn't run propane (or any "green gas"). Furnace, hot water heater at floor-level, and my life and family above.... I'm not introducing concentrated, combustible, heavier-than-air gasses to that equation. Try duster gas, it might work just fine for you. Edited December 26, 2009 by Anon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted December 27, 2009 Share Posted December 27, 2009 With an adapter, you can run Duster Gas (the type you buy at Sam's Club for blowing out computers) in probably any gun that will run green-gas......I switched to duster gas in the mags. The gun still runs fine. The BBs come out a bit slower, but not a big enough deal to worry about it. Do your AS pistols have plastic or metal slides? Just trying to figure whether the weight of the slide would make any difference, not just BB performance wise, but gun/slide fuction wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furyalecto Posted January 9, 2010 Author Share Posted January 9, 2010 Green Gas with HFC-22 on the label is propane. I received an MSDS from the company. UN1075. They were very polite in providing it. It just took a little while. I have run a bit in the basement. It is pretty cold & it doesn't want to run for long. I may have to try the heating pad procedure out. Thanks for all the replies & all the great info here for the searching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Good that you pinned them down on that. Other indirect evidence - I ordered more gas from a major on line vendor, asking for the Bestek Power Green. I got sent another brand, whose labels warned of the flammability of propane. "Aha!" I think, "I bet the Bestek doesn't have a flammability warning on it if it's actually HCF-22", but, guess what, my old cans do have them. So mebbe it was propane all along. I do have two different AS guns and two pellet weights - could very well be that I found a different POI with camping propane vs canned AS gas because I inadvertently used a different combo from what I had sighted in on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 12, 2010 Share Posted January 12, 2010 Green gas is propane. Somewhere in this forum you'll find a link to the lab report by the guy who took a canister of Green Gas and a canister of propane to a test lab and had them analyze the contents of both. Guess what? The major component of the gas in both canisters was identical. In other words, Green Gas is propane. Demonstrably, lab tested, propane. Who'da thunk it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Propane is odorless and can't be detected so to be able to detect it the nasty smell is added so leaks can be detected. Green gas doesn't have that same smell and makes it easier on the nose to shoot. At least thats how it was explained to me. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 13, 2010 Share Posted January 13, 2010 Canister propane has had added to it a chemical called ethyl mercaptan that gives it that distinctive rotten eggs smell. The folks bottling propane want it, in case of a leak, to have a very distinctive, hard-to-ignore odor so you can smell the leak fast. Green Gas by contrast has had perfume added to make it smell "pretty". Since canister propane costs literally about 1/12th the price of Green Gas, I can live without the perfume, thank you very much. Just add a little silicon oil to the propane, voilà!, de facto Green Gas at a tiny fraction of the cost. I'll take it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 My garage is too full of junk to be able to do any meaningful dry fire, so I was going to do it in the basement. However, I'm not sure I want to be releasing propane into a poorly ventilated area near my furnace and hot water heater. Has anyone tried using CO2 instead? I have a mig welder with a big honking CO2 cylinder, so i was wondering if I'd even be able to refill the little CO2 canisters, or just fill the mags with CO2 instead of green gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 18, 2010 Share Posted January 18, 2010 CO2 is MUCH more powerful than Green Gas/propane. No, you can't use it in your Green Gas/propane rated Airsoft, unless you don't mind breaking something in short order. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 Duane - I have the WE Tech P14 which is labelled as CO2/Green Gas... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 We are beginning to see Airsofts that are rated for Green Gas/propane and CO2. However most gas powered Airsofts aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 20, 2010 Share Posted January 20, 2010 ...I have a mig welder with a big honking CO2 cylinder, so i was wondering if I'd even be able to refill the little CO2 canisters, or just fill the mags with CO2 instead of green gas... CO2 cartridges have a metal seal that you puncture, don't they? I didn't think it was possible to refill and reseal them. I also didn't know that there are magazines rated both for CO2 and green gas. Is there any adjustmnet you have to make in the gun/on the magazine for the different pressures the gases generate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pittbug Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 Well that's the thing, I don't really know. I assumed the CO2 canisters just had a self sealing ball valve type thing, like propane bottles, but I may be completely wrong. According to the picture on the box, you take the base plate off the mag and insert the mini CO2 bottle. But I was wondering if there was an adapter for the big CO2 bottle, so I could fill the mag with CO2 using the green gas valve in the mag instead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted January 24, 2010 Share Posted January 24, 2010 (edited) They have guns with hoses hooked up to the bottom of the gun so they don't have to worry about it. I seen it last yr on a video. They use it for Steel Challenge type matches where you stand and shoot. It could be propane but it could of been CO2. I've been searching for the vid but no luck finding it. Flyin Found this The best Airsoft guns are the ones that run off of gas or propane tanks. This is because these guns will usually use a combination of nitrogen, carbon dioxide (CO2) and freon. There are 2 ways in which this gas can enter into the gun's chamber. The first way is by being injected into the reservoir with a magazine. The second way is through an external tank. Once the tank is filled, the trigger will then activate the release of the gas. At this point, a small amount of cold gas will react with the warmer atmosphere. When this happens, the gas will then expand instantly and it will then be channeled through a nozzle that is aimed at the pellet. This pressure will then release the BB from the barrel of the gun. There are a lot of Airsoft automatics, revolvers, and rifles that use these methods for filling their propane chambers. Edited January 24, 2010 by Flyin40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CC712400 Posted February 11, 2010 Share Posted February 11, 2010 (edited) I used to play recreationally at an indoor arena (>~10,000ft2), and gas guns were often favorites. The policies of the arena dictated that the gassing of magazines was required to happen out of the arena, following the logic that gassing up mags unnecessarily pollutes the arena. It was uncommon for the propane to be a problem though, except in instances where people using full-auto guns stayed in one spot for an extended period of time (such as holding down a strategically valuable location). In these instances, the people who stayed in these areas generally complained of mild lightheadedness and/or nausea, if affected at all. I run courses in my friend's garage, and there is no real ventilation. We run the course (having gassed up mags outside) once or twice each, then we open the garage and leave it open for 15-20 minutes while we talk about what worked and what didn't. Then we go back, close the garage, and repeat. We've never had a problem, but then again, we don't have a pilot light right next to us. At the arena I used to play at, the gassing-up area was right next to the smoker's outpost, and on plenty of occasions I saw people (with lit cigarettes in mouth), gassing up magazines. I personally never felt such a need to tempt fate, but they did, and it doesn't appear to have come back to bite them so far. Worth noting though that the flammability of an open flame (pilot light) is almost certainly greater than that of a cigarette burning. Ultimately though, you might want to avoid tempting fate, and find a partner who's got a better training area. Edited February 11, 2010 by CC712400 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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