Swingers

[Jon Merricks]

What are some tips on engauging swingers? Is shooting it once and then once again after the return worth looseing the time to get two A's. Or go for an A and a C. I really need alot of practice on this one.

[PaulW]

Thats really a tough questions because it depends on many variables.  i.e How fast the swinger is swinging, how far away, any no-shoots around..ect ect ect.  Most of the time I take what the swinger gives me.  What I mean is if I take the first shot and the swinger is there I shoot it again.  Idealy if you shoot the swinger right when it stops (the transition from swinging one way to the other) is best.  It doesn't always appear there when your ready to shoot however.

[38supPat]

Excellent question! Tough to answer though. This is another case of you gotta get a little experience. There are some guideline though. If the swinger comes out from the side of a barricade and is unobscured for most of its travel you want to shoot it at its natural pause. That is the pointwhere it stops swinging out and begins swinging back. It is at its most 'shootable point here as during the time it slows down, stops, and then accelerates back it is in one place for a fairly long time. Hit it here. How many shot you get on it per swing is dependant on the length of time it is visible and distance. I know at last years Pan-Ams there were swingers approaching 20 yds or more. With a limited gun and dependant on skill level you may only get one shot at a time. If the swinger is appearing and disappearing rapidly, like over top of hard cover again thers a good chance you'll only get one shot at it per swing. Try to get access to one and set it up in as many ways as you can think of.

Here's a case where being open to what you see is very important to your shooting. On two occasions I have had my plan in mind and altered it as I shot according to what I saw. One was at AWARE with a stage where many shooters complained about the difficulty. You had to pull on a pool racker (on a pool table) this activated 4 targets, a drop turner that stayed out behind a NS on the left, a swinger coming out from behind hard cover on the left center, another swinger center right, and another drop turner on the right that stays out behind a NS. My plan was on the draw I had time to activate the targets and draw to the left swinger then the right swinger which came out slightly later then right drop turner, left drop turner. When i actually shot it I didn't get on the first target as fast as expected. I did get it but it was going away. There was now no way to get the right so I turned shot the right DT and came back just as the right swinger was coming back out, I shot it, then finished on the left. I just shot what I saw as it happened. I won the stage beating Todd, Matt, and everyone else. It was a cool bit of stage glory. Not real important to the overall match but I did learn from it. Sometimes despite your plan, you've just gotta turn everthing over to what you see and act on it.

Get Jerry Barnhardts tapes he has an excellent section on how to deal with swingers including many options.

Pat

Or wait for Brian's tapes I'm sure he'll deal with it as well in his usual detailed fasion

[ErikW]

Yeah, swingers are a huge obstacle for me with iron sights. (Truth is, I don't think there's anything more difficult in this game.) I seem to shoot a lot of alpha-delta or a hit and a miss. With a C-More, swingers are routine two alphas.

When I acquire the swinger, my focus is on it and I'm determining where it is in its arc as I set the gun up to the sweet spot. Then I focus on the front sight and shoot an A or C. Then things fall apart. I know with about .25 splits or slower (swingers are never close!) it's going to move too much for me to make a good shot by just letting the sight return to where it was. I don't want to chase it with the gun. (Or do I?) That leads to me focusing on the target not the sight. I don't want to wait for it to come back to its sweet spot because that takes forever. (I realize some fast swingers with limited areas of exposure require waiting for a second pass.)

I have less trouble with swingers when I'm standing there and activating them. I know exactly when it's coming and where it will be. I have more trouble when they have been previously activated and I am moving into a new position to engage them.

I really want to see how Brian and Travis deal with swingers with Limited guns. "Help me Obi-Wan, you're my only hope!"

[benos]

Jon,

A few more considerations. To effectively deal with swingers, you must have a rock-solid ability to call your shots. This is most important. And not just to call your shots on swingers, but on every target. If you can't do this, find the posts on calling your shots and begin your practice by starting from the beginning. This is the most important skill to have as a shooter.

Now, on the swingers, definitely be open to chasing the target if you have to. Often this is the only way to get your hits on one pass. I have extensive experience shooting moving targets with irons; this really helps. You have to simultaneously look at your sights and track the target to be successful on the "Mover." Try to find mover to practice on. Look at the sights, and read the targets position behind your sights.

Another good trick, once you've mastered the above is to study the targets sweep from the position where you have to engage it from and figure out where the center of mass is in relationship to the surrounding obstacles WHEN THE TARGET IS NOT ACTUALLY VISIBLE. Find a spot on the backstop, or visualize where this area is by imagining it (the center of the target at its sweet spot), and what your sights will look like when the target is not there. If you’re practicing, hold your gun in position and "memorize" that spot. Now when you move to engage the swinger, just snap your gun to your "spot," and hopefully the target will appear behind your sites. I’ve hit some super fast swingers that have no extra visibility time using this method. You have to trust that the target will be there, and just move to your spot and shoot. And all the above is taking for granted that you’ve studied the course of fire and make your best guess as to target order engagement, for your skill level, on that day. And, if you have the chance, study everyone possible before you shoot. Often, this is where you’ll get your best info.

be

[ErikW]

I just shot the ~475 round Crazy Croc match this past weekend, and it had a lot of swingers, including a double swinger/bobber I've never seen before. Of all the swingers, I think I had one miss (a called "hoper" on a fast stacked partial) and a D, the rest As and Cs.

What I did this time around was carefully plan and set up the first shot, then patiently chase ("track" is a better description) the target for the second shot. (On the slow swingers, chasing is hardly an issue, just a very slight adjustment.) Basically, I did what Brian said in the previous post.

I saw a few people spraying and praying at the swingers, which was really discouraging. They just aren't gonna hit anything by pointing the gun and pulling the trigger fast and they are wasting time.

[ErikW]

Forum regulars may know of my continuing difficult with swinging targets in USPSA competitions. There's another thread on the subject, but I've got some new questions.

I set up a swinger to start hidden at 3 o'clock, swing counter clockwise at high speed, start appearing behind cover around 11 o'clock, stall about 8-9 o'clock, and swing back and repeat.

From around 10 yards I could get two shots on it at its first or second pass at 9 o'clock. From 15 yards I could only get a single shot off, then I had to wait 1.5 seconds for it to reappear.

I just stood there at 15 yards going bang, wait, bang, wait, bang, for 10 shots. I ended up shooting a nice group in the C zone, just right of the lower A corner.  What's up with that? I'm trying to do the math here...

Obviously I'm shooting "low" because I'm shooting at the slower part of the target. (Outside of target moves faster.) But I don't understand the C zone. Maybe it's timing, but too soon before the target stalls, or too late? I guess too soon because otherwise I'd hit left as it moves back clockwise?

[Jon Merricks]

Erik,  I'm really not one to give advise (and your saying then dont ) but My plans next time I practice is to see how long the swinger is visable on its first pass.  If it is visable for around .40-.60 any problems shooting it from 15 and in would be just mental.    

[cpty1]

Man, that's a tough one.  I don't know that I can contribute anything but this observation.  I find it unusual your hits are to the lower right of the A zone.  I would think most shooters would generally hit more lower left as a result of a psychological desire to avoid the hardcover, which I understand in your scenario would be to the right of the swinger since your engaging the swinger when it's in the 9 o'clock position.  Were you engaging around a barricade or some other obstacle that would force you out of your normal index and might cause such consistent groups out of the A zone of the target?

[Luiz Francisco Ramos]

Eric

From the hit in the popper until engage the swinger, it is close, opening, closing, or open?

How many seconds to do the first shoot?

In this situations, when the time to reapper is 1.5s or higher, I usually don´t wait, just go on.

There will be no diference in the HF, if it is a field course. And a lot of shooters will wait 1.5s and MISS! Others will reshoot any times until have sure to hit, causing reload problems...

So I don´t think it´s advantage to wait... I engage the first carefully, and go to next target.

Sometimes we can´t measure the exact distance. If it is 12,5 yards? what to do? Try a double or wait?...

But if are there another targets, we can syncronize them.

If it is a speed course, I wait and engage 2 times, no matter how long it costs!

Here in Brazil, it´s useful to construct swingers that start hidden at 3, apear at 1 to 11, and desapear at 9, and came back. This kind of swinger is a tragedy for all of us.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

[BBoyle]

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Quote: from Erik Warren on 1:22 pm on July 5, 2002

Forum regulars may know of my continuing difficult with swinging targets in USPSA competitions. There's another thread on the subject, but I've got some new questions.

I set up a swinger to start hidden at 3 o'clock, swing counter clockwise at high speed, start appearing behind cover around 11 o'clock, stall about 8-9 o'clock, and swing back and repeat.

From around 10 yards I could get two shots on it at its first or second pass at 9 o'clock. From 15 yards I could only get a single shot off, then I had to wait 1.5 seconds for it to reappear.

I just stood there at 15 yards going bang, wait, bang, wait, bang, for 10 shots. I ended up shooting a nice group in the C zone, just right of the lower A corner.  What's up with that? I'm trying to do the math here...

---

The reason for the nice group in the C zone is that you are breaking the shot when you see the sights in the A zone of the target.  The swinger is moving, and the time it takes for trigger pull, ignition, and the time for the bullet to travel to the target, allows the target to be in a differrent position then when you actually called your shot.

Try leading the swinger out a little from where it will come out and follow it down (leading it at about the C zone and break your shots there.  You should end up with A zone hits and after some practice you will be engaging the target with 2 "confident" rounds on the down and up swings (one for each direction)

I hope this helps and makes sense.

Brian

[Detlef]

Brian, I hope you're not suggesting *swinging the gun* on these types of situations. IMHO, that's a total nono and safe recipe for poor control & disaster... Pick a spot and break the shot a little early...

Erik, what's the problem with varying your timing a bit and seeing where the shots end up then? i) wait a little longer -> success means you broke early, ii) break the shot a little earlier (I'd try to go for the left A-C boundary in what you describe) -> success means you waited too long...

--Detlef

[David Benzick]

Erik, here's a drill that might help:

Activate a 10-15 yard swinger and take one shot per appearance.  Prep the next shot carefully while the swinger is away and try to see how tight a six shot group you can shoot.  Once you get a group about the size of your fist, start experimenting with moving the group around on the target.  When you can put the group where you want to on the target, start shooting two shots per appearance.

Good luck.

[BBoyle]

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Quote: from Detlef on 8:32 am on July 9, 2002

Brian, I hope you're not suggesting *swinging the gun* on these types of situations. IMHO, that's a total nono and safe recipe for poor control & disaster... Pick a spot and break the shot a little early...

--Detlef

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That is exactly what you are supposed to do if you want to be able to engage a swinger with multiple shots on a single appearance.

You aim where you know the swinger will appear and break the shot on the forward moving C Zone. Then follow the swinger (swing the gun in the same linear direction that the swinger is swinging to) while it is slowing down and break the shot when you can call an A just before it stops at the bottom or when you can call a C on the upswing which will result in an A Zone hit.

That is how you are supposed to call your shots and hit where you want on any moving target. You do this by slightly leading it.

Brian

[Detlef]

I certainly & violently disagree, but this is two blind people arguing about the light (I mean two M's). Yes, at very close distances (< 7y) I swing the gun with the swinger, but at what Erik described (15 y), I can't hit sh.. with this technique because the movement is so non-linear. Movers are a different animal, at constant speed you simply lead, and I never had problems with movers but for a long time had them with swingers.

Let's get the opinons of the true Masters! Brian? Phil? Do you move your guns on 15 y partial swingers, or do you *pick a spot* and keep the gun steady?

--Detlef

(Edited by Detlef at 5:08 pm on July 10, 2002)

[Ron Ankeny]

Detlef:

In Jerry Barnhart's instructional tapes he warns against chasing the swinger with your pistol, especially towards cover. His recommendation is to pick a spot at the bottom of the arc and shoot there.

I have three swingers of my own and I have practiced on them a bunch. At distances beyond ten yards I shoot with the pistol stationary. I hope Phil, Brian, Pat, Matt, and the others offer up some sage advice because I too want to know what they recommend. Good discussion...keep it up.

[gm iprod]

I go with Ron.

At the bottom of its swing the target is (very) temporarily stationary. Just before and just after that point, it is moving at its slowest. Shoot then. You MAY have enough time to shoot one on the way down and one on the way up???????

I have real trouble with swingers as I shoot a lot of NRA Action and we lead the target, bad bad thing to do on a swinger, as I have found out.

[benos]

Shooting swingers effectively requires: experience, planning, (both very related), spontaneity, (for when it turns to crap), and REALLY calling the shot at the instant it fires. Which is not easy when the target is cranking all over the place and you're all stressed out about either getting your hits or trying "to get finished."

That's all I'm gonna say for now because I've been off the board for a week and a half...

[vulcan9854]

It may not be of much help but one thing that helps me on swingers is to pick a point during the walk through where the swinger comes to a stop.  Have a reference point you are going to aim at in your mind a bring the gun to that point. This reference point will be where the swinger is at its point of stopping to go the other direction.  I have had better luck bringing my gun to this point,  waiting for the swinger to move into my line of fire and shooting two or three quick shots.