Move To Open Or Limited

[DogmaDog]

Hey all,

not sure of where to put this topic, exactly. The question is whether an Open gun is a better tool for learning to shoot faster, or should I just move to Limited.

On Matt Burkett's forums, he suggested that after using a gun with a dot sight, a shooter would be able to see iron sights in ways he never had before, and recommended shooting Open before moving to Limited.

Do you agree with this proposition? What are your thoughts on the matter?

I'm currently C class in L10 division, shooting my single stack .45. I'm interested in trying out Open or Limited, but can see advantages and disadvantages to each.

I appreciate your opinions,

DD

[SmittyFL]

If your goal is to be the best all around shooter you can be I would suggest going to limited first. I shoot both, and Open is a blast, all out speed, unlimited rounds, etc. But it is way easier than shooting Limited, I agree with almost anything I've heard Matt say and I haven't heard him say shoot Open to learn speed but I guess that could be true for some. I have only seen one or two people that need to be taught speed. Most of the time you need to work on accuracy and the speed will come.

Once you become a good Limited shooter moving to Open is more fun than should be allowed. Everything looks so clear, almost as if it were in slow motion. You're used to looking at the target then lining up the sights then focusing on the front sight, etc. now all you have to do is look at the target with the red dot on it and pull the trigger.

I would go to limited first if I were you, especially since you're used to shooting iron sights in L-10 anyway.

[Flexmoney]

Limited is tougher.

You have more recoil to deal with.

You have to call the shot...and pull your focus back from targets to the front sight more.

[Ron Ankeny]

Why move to another division at all? I would dare say that the vast majority of GM and M shooters over the age of 40 cut their teeth on a single stack .45. Unless your .45 is a real piece of junk, you can master the fundamentals, develop great technique, and shoot your way into Limited and Limited 10 Master with what you already have.

I went to Limited from a single stack just because the guns are cool and with a hi cap magazine your attention is constantly being diverted to the reload. I moved from Limited to open because I love the intensity and awesome hit factors that come along with dots and big sticks. Then I went to revolver, then back to a single stack, then to production. Of all five divisions, the one that really made me get my act together and really shoot is Production.

[DogmaDog]

Ron,

Well, mostly I think I agree with you. My Kimber Gold Match is just fine. I've previously felt that Open guns are pretty ridiculous---why go to all this trouble to make these really hot loads, then a bunch more trouble to reduce the recoil? They're noisy, fragile, finicky, etc. Wouldn't it be simpler to just shoot a .22 with a dot on it?

The idea that really has me thinking is the notion that shooting an Open gun would be a good vehicle for learning how to shoot an iron sighted gun faster (while still maintaining accuracy).

If that's true, and it's really fun, and it's not any more expensive to load for, now that I can get a 9mm, then it's probably worthwhile.

If, on the other hand, learning to see a dot is not especially beneficial for seeing irons, and I won't get faster faster than with my 1911, then it probably isn't worth it.

Thanks,

DogmaDog

[Chriss Grube]

DogmaD,

The reason it is easier to go from Open to Limited is that the Open gun is easier to shoot. You use the dot and don't have to worry about lining up the sights as much, therefore you can concentrate on the important things. Remember shooting is easy it is all the other things that add time. You get used to being able to call your shots quicker and transition to the next target or move to the next position. This "increased" speed doesn't go away when you switch to limited you just have to slow down a little on the sights. When I came back from my surgery I picked up the limited gun and won my class at the Mid-atlantic. I was only about a month post op and still couldn't move worth a damn but the switch to limited after mainly shooting open let me still be competitve. I didn't lose any speed on splits or transitions just needed to slow down on the sights. I was surprised at how easy it felt tracking the sights. Contary to some thoughts it is easier to learn to be accurate than it is to learn speed. Being in LE everything is accuracy based and it took a couple years to really learn to turn the speed loose.

[kevin c]

Aging eyes may eventually drive me to Open, but I am happy in Limited/L10/Production. There's also the fact that you can spend twice or three times the money on an open blaster vs a limited or production model, more if you're a Glockophile.

[Flexmoney]

Well...I am just going to say this...

I see lots and lots of shooters that never learn to use thier post and notch sights.

If a shooter isn't going to learn...then they might as well go to the dot. At least with the dot they can always focus on the target.

If a shooter truely want to learn to use their sights, I think they should stick with them and do what it takes to learn them. In fact, I think shooting the dot will hurt more than it could possible help...for most shooters. I'd leave the dot alone.

[davecutts]

Shoot slow enough to get your hits and do everything else fast. In other words you want to be shooting when your not. Para pharsed for Mike Voigt. He also said Speed Power or Accuracy, you have to pick one, and I'll pick accuracy all the time.

[EricW]

Lim or Open or both cool. I love the S_I plaform. It's soooooo much better than my Production gear. I miss my STI.

The great part about going Lim or Open is that you're running up against most of the top talent. *That* is cool. It's painful to see your name next to 63% on the score sheet, but very fun nonetheless.

[Chipster]

When I took Matt's class the point of shooting an open gun first was to learn how to track the sights as the gun is in motion. You can see the dot lift off of the target and then you see the dot come back down. Then you transition from one target to another you see the dot moving back down and on to the next target. You can easily see and track the gun and it sights movement. Then when you switch to a limited gun you know what the front sight should be doing. Not that you couldn't learn with a limited gun to begin with but it made it much easier. He told this to a father who was trying to teach his 12 year old boy how to shoot.

Chip

[j1b]

Keep in mind that Matt (like me) really learned how to shoot with an open gun. We grew up on them.

I personally feel like limited taught me more about shooting than open ever did. It was tougher, and more challenging.

Put it this way - once nationals was over we generally considered that the "off season" I always started shooting limited during the off season, trying to compete with the open guys. It taught me to be a better competitor.

Personally I feel like anyone who can shoot limited strong can shoot open. I don't know that I feel the same way if you reverse the situtation. There are open shooters that aren't as capable with limited blasters.

I am not discounting Matt's advice - and I don't want to put words in his mouth. Please don't take it that way - I just feel like we came up in the ranks the same way.

JB

[DogmaDog]

Wow,

I love getting all these excellent (and conflicting ) points of view!

I'm coming from a background where I learned to shoot rifles in the Marine Corps, and made it to Master class shooting service rifle in NRA and CMP competition, so I suppose I know something about sight alignment...learning how imperfect a sight picture you can get away with in IPSC, and how to get it to an acceptable level FAST, without rushing, is a different thing!

I shot an IPSC match yesterday with lots of no-shoots and steel targets placed in front of no-shoots, and I got good hits and no misses or penalties. I placed poorly on two stages because I failed to fully seat my magazines twice (!) during reloads, and on one stage I shot to slide lock and that just confused me (I thought the gun had malfunctined--I'm so used to firing 8 shots at an array, and then reloading ).

So I think davecutts is right--I need to refine my non-shooting skills and get them faster. I also think ErikW makes a good point--"Go where the competition is" (if I may paraphrase), so a blaster might take me there (currently there are no GM/M/A/B shooters in L10 at my local clubs). I shoot a weekly man-on-man steel plate match, and do feel that the competition has driven me faster than anything else. I also do enjoy beating guys shooting downloaded Open blasters using my singlestack and major ammo

So I guess the obvious answer is: Don't plunk down $1000s before trying out the divisions. I'll have to borrow an open blaster for a match or two, and the same with limited, and see how it goes. Anybody shoot in the New Orleans area wanna try out a singlestack .45? I'll trade you for a day!

DogmaDog