New Uspsa Production Rules

[Gary Stevens]

Well as I have often said when running a shooter who doesn't want to accept my advice as to the meaning of the walk through, "You shoot it your way, and I'll score it my way. Then those at a higher pay grade than me can work it out."

As I have said, IMO when you holster a C&L pistol you have in fact holstered a single action pistol, regardless of it's other abilities, which is not allowed in Production.

If you disagree, and feel strongly about your ability to wordsmith the rules, I suggest you pick the first major tournament after the new rules are published and in force, and give it a try.

Who knows you might be right.

[Vlad]

But Gary, that is exactly my point. The current wording leaves it up to the RO. My point is that if you can not answer the question "Where in the rules does it say that?" then I don't think you can make the case that the shooter should be bumped into a different division. You say "which is not allowed in Production" and I am asking "where does it say that". All I am saying is replace "first shot double action" with "gun must be holstered decocked after LAMR", which doesn't live any room for confusion.

Oh well. I give up and I go brave the snow storm and hope I can make it home. It looks really mean out there.

Vlad

[Jake Di Vita]

I'm with Gary. Which ever "mode" your blaster is in at the beep is what matters, not its other functions.

[Flexmoney]

Well...I think Vlad might have a point.

How about we get this ironed out before we go to print with the new rules. If not...we will be ironing it out at every match...and on here...every time someone trys to figure it out.

(Could somebody post the actual wording?)

[Flexmoney]

Oh...here is a link to a dedicated thread on this...in the proper forum (thanks Bucky):

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=9677

[IPSCDRL]

Well...I think Vlad might have a point.

(Could somebody post the actual wording?)

Sure. The pertinent part of appendix "E" US division rules states;

"d. Single Action pistols not allowed. First shot must be double action."

The BOD minutes state "iii) double Action/Single Action First Shot" {this is a title of the discussion point}

"A* Moves to strike "first shot must be fired double action" in Production Appendix D" "(but leave "single action pistols not allowed")"

A2 Seconds. Passed Unanimously"

So now the rule will simply read "d. Single Action pistols not allowed."

This makes me agree with Vlad that there is ambiguity in this and it could be very easily clarified before the new rules are printed.

[Gary Stevens]

Hey Flex, I know you have trouble reading upside down but considering what we have now, and the modification we are going to make, where do you find wording that allows you to C&L in Production Division? The modification only allows the first shot to be fired single action. It made no modification to any starting conditions, and the rule states "Single Action Pistols (have to include the word pistol or Vlad will correct me ) not allowed".

Unless you want to debate the meaning of the word "is", how can you holster loaded, C&L with a rule that says Single Action Pistols not allowed?

I await your insight, as long as I don't have to stand on my head to read it.

[Tom Mainus]

Yes Gary, that is exactly how I understood the rule. My bad.

[Flexmoney]

I guess I don't know what a single-action pistol is.

[Vince Pinto]

Vlad,

Disclaimer: This answer is the official position in respect of IPSC rules only.

Yes, under Rule 8.1.2.3, an SA/DA gun (such as a H&K or CZ) can be holstered either hammer down (decocked) or "cocked & locked". However this is a general rule, but the end of that very same rule says "(see Divisions)".

In respect of IPSC Production Division, there is a specific divisional requirement that "First shot must be double action", hence if you're shooting IPSC PD, you would not be able to comply if you holstered C&L.

Hope this helps.

[Vlad]

Well ... As far as I have always understood it, it goes like this

Single action pistol = a pistol which can only shoot single action aka SAO

1911, 2011, BHP, Desert Eagle, etc

Double action pistol= a selective fire pistol, single action and double action, DA/SA

CZ, Beretta, USP, SIG, etc (some can do C&L, some can't)

Double action only = .. well I guess that one is simple. DAO

Glock, many versions of otherwise DA/SA guns, etc

So as far as I can tell, Appendix 6 will still ban the first one, but says nothing about the use of the second. In fact it never did, as far as I can tell. However it made no sense to have your DA/SA gun cocked an locked as you had to decock before the first shot so no competitive advantage could be gained from it, plus the RO may not be able to tell if you decocked before your first shot.

I believe what you are refering to is closer to "conditions" (as in carry conditions) or state of the gun at a certain point, but that is not what the rule says, even if it means it. It only refers to type of gun. If your reading was correct then any gun which can be fire in SA would be banned, as there is no wording banning SA at the first shot or the second shot, or in the holster or out of it. So, by your reading, guns that can be fired in SA would not be allowed EVER. That is clearly not the case.

Heh .. if I was in a foul mood, I would mention that by the wording of the rules, the XD is C&L and allowed. But I actually think that the XD in Production makes sense given how it actually feels to the shooter.

Vlad

PS: If we continue this, we should really move to Bucky's thread

[Vlad]

Vince, I agree. However under the new USPSA rules that wording would no longer be there.

Vlad

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Once again solely in respect of IPSC rules, the other thing which came up earlier and I'd like to address now is the difference between "using illegal equipment" and "failing to comply with a start position".

"Using illegal equipment" includes having a +170mm magazine on your person in Open Division during a COF, having a gun with magazines which don't fit the box in Standard Division, and using a +2 baseplate in IPSC Production Division. For these offenses, you'd be relegated to Open Division (or you'd shoot for no score if you're already in Open and breach, say, the 170mm magazine rule).

"Failing to comply with a start position" includes having your hands by your sides at the start signal when the COF mandates the surrender position, having a chambered round when the COF mandates an empty chamber prior to the start signal and holstering a gun C&L in IPSC Production Division. For these offenses, you should be corrected by the RO but, if the error was originally missed and you've shot the stage, you get a reshoot.

[Detlef]

just my 0.02 as certified DRL: If all that will be done to USPSA's Prod Div rules is what is in the minutes, we end up with the amibiguity mentioned by vlad and others. NOT GOOD! The wording must be amended to specify the condition in which the gun must be to start the COF.

Gary, why on earth did BOD members choose to differ yet again from IPSC's wording? Someone who wants to shoot that first target at 50 y from an SA condition can always (responsibly...) "shot cock" the gun! It doesn't take any longer than thumb cocking... (now someone will say it's "dangerous"...).

Or, asking the reverse question, why did the USPSA representatives in the IPSC rule committee not lobby for allowing thumb cocking?

Thumb cocking permitted or not, I don't care, but can't we avoid another rule difference with IPSC?

Puzzled.... Detlef

[LPatterson]

Gary,

It is much like the fuss over the competitors loading with 11 rounds in their magazine. They did not comply with the requirements of the Division. Production does not allow single action guns.

Springfield Arms lists the XD as single action so why do you think it should be included in a gun list for production. Revolver rules were changed (in the US) to penalize more than 6 shots between reloads. Now the BOD wants to allow/include more than 6 shot revolvers in Production.

I understand rules differences with IPSC when US local laws prohibit something but the USPSA President was Chairman of the rules commitete plus we (US) had 2 other persons on the committee so why is the BOD wanting to make changes that are not based on local laws.

chp5,

I don't see the need to buy an XD any more than I see the need to shoot my 4" MagnaPorted barrel 44 Mag in Revolver because if I did I wouldn't be scored in Revolver Division.

The theme I am trying to present is that a governing body to which we belong has established rules in which we had voting authority and now it is time to abide by those rules/laws changed only as necessary to fit our local circumstances.

We do have this thing called the Congress Of The United States that establishes laws that the States have authority to further restrict but cannot expand. A Law that comes to mind was the National 55 Mile Per Hour speed limit, Congress had to rescind that law before States could raise the speed limit on the Interstate. It is road system paid for in the beginning with Federal dollars but now States are required to maintain it so they can make you drive as slowly as they want.

//RANT MODE OFF//

I normally only shoot Limited 10 so why should I care? I guess because when I decided to become a CRO it became necessary for me to know the rules and apply them as they were written not what I thought they should say.

[rmills]

In reviewing the proposed Production Rules changes and some of the comments here, it would appear that the BOD has broken down and diluted the rules of a growing and popular division. Allowing "cocked and locked", so as to give the shooter a single action shot on the 1st shot and thus every shot after (this applies to Berettas, CZ's, etc.) is very much not in the original spirit of the division. Allowing 8.5" revolvers as well as 8 shot revolvers further moves the division away from it's intended roots. Did I read one of the previous posts correctly? Can a shooter now place mag pouches in front of the hipbone? If these new rules are enacted, it will be a major disappointment for a lot of shooters currently shooting Production. Again, we had a good set of Production rules. If one did not like the Production rules, they could play in another division. There is a reason IDPA's SSP division keeps growing (and IDPA in general). It's rules stability.

[Vince Pinto]

Detlef,

Or, asking the reverse question, why did the USPSA representatives in the IPSC rule committee not lobby for allowing thumb cocking?

USPSA Area 1 Director and USPSA delegate on the IPSC Handgun Rules Committee Bruce Gary raised this very issue in November 2002, but there was no support for allowing cocking of the hammer after the start signal.

Bruce's argument was (is) that the division rules should only dictate what equipment does, and does not, satisfy the criteria of the division, and we should not be limiting what a competitor can do safely after the start signal.

My argument is that some "activity" rules are indeed division specific, and this is why they can only appear in the relevant division pages. For example, we do exactly the same thing in Revolver Standard Division (you can load 8, but you can only fire 6 before reloading without penalty).

Moreover, in my opinion, allowing competitors to manually cock their hammers after the start signal will arguably make SA/DA (e.g. H&K, CZ) guns more popular than DAO (e.g. Glock and various other) guns, because it doesn't require too much practice to get proficient at drawing and cocking in one smooth motion. This could (actually or perceptively) lessen the value of the guns acquired by competitors under the original PD criteria.

[Wakal]

What difference does it make if the value of the gun purchased under the old rules drops?

That is a very silly school of thought...folks are still shooting Limited quite competitively with .45 ACP widebodies, not exactly the ubergeek Limited gun of choice. And if our concern over "value of guns pre-and-post" rules change is in effect and is considered SO strongly as to drive all rules changes, then where in the hell is my $3,000 check for buying a 20-round drum-fed shotgun only to watch the shotgun mag limit rules change a year later make my purchase a waste of money?

Alex

PS although a very entertaining waste of money, to be sure

AW

[Gary Stevens]

I just checked the Springfield Armory website and could not find a reference to the XD being single action. Perhaps you have information I don't have access to. The call their gun the "USA Action Trigger System". I have explained my rational for my vote, if you disagree so be it.

As to following IPSC rules, I will just say this. I have been in this sport long enough to remember the explaniation of the word "Confederation" as it was explained many years ago. It was, using my own words, a lose confederation of like minded individuals (countries) striving to achieve a common goal. In this movement Regions were free to adopt their own rules to further those goals. If someone can provide documentaion to the contrary, I will try to reprogram my memory. In this light, there are areas I will not vote in lock step with IPSC. Where possible, I am all for it, but probably not always.

Mr. Mills, there is not, was not, and will not be any intent to allow single actions in Production. I thought I had stated that, but maybe not. I will assure all the DRL's that we are working on very clear language that will address this issue, and hopefully, althought probably not, make it clear that the gun may not be in single action mode when the start signal goes off.

Got to go clean guns from todays match, and get ready for tomorrows match.

[rmills]

Mr. Stevens:

I know that true single actions are not allowed. I was refering to the proposed rule change that allows for a DA/SA pistol to begin a COF with the hammer cocked thereby allowing a single action shot on the 1st round and every round thereafter. In regards to the Springfield XD, it is a single action mechanism, period. Although the trigger may feel like a double action, it is not. Pulling the trigger does not pull the striker back. It is defined by it's actual manufacturer in Croatia as a single action.

[Gary Stevens]

Well once again, I think time number 99, there is no rule allowing single action in Production. If you have a DA/SA gun and it is not in DA mode, I would suggest it is therefore in SA mode. If my logic on this is wrong, would someone please point out to me where it has gone astray. However in an attempt to prevent problems such as the misreading of "yes, 10 rounds maximum in magazine" we have a crack team of lawyers working on the wording of the clarification, even as I write this. So in the end, it is a moot point.

As to the XD, it is what it is. If it makes the Approved Gun List it will be allowed. If it does not, it won't. Those who do not agree with this have options available to them to address it.

[chp5]

The BOD minutes state "iii) double Action/Single Action First Shot" {this is a title of the discussion point}

"A* Moves to strike "first shot must be fired double action" in Production Appendix D" "(but leave "single action pistols not allowed")"

A2 Seconds. Passed Unanimously"

Gary,

I agree with your interpretation and appreciate your efforts. I believe your interpretation fits with the guiding concepts for Prod.

I think it is confusing, however, when the Board strikes the phrase: the "first shot must be fired double action." If we borrow interpretational concepts from corporate and contract law (which is appropriate when interpreting minutes and rules), a deletion is deemed to be intentional and to have a definite meaning.

It’s appropriate to discern that removal of specific language evidences the intent to make that language no longer applicable. Therefore, since the Board removed the language - "first shot must be fired double action," - that language no longer applies. If that language no longer applies (which is the effect of removing it), then it is appropriate to say that – the first shot NEED NOT be fired double action.

This interpretation could conflict with the remaining language - "single action pistols not allowed" – but maybe not because some modern pistols can be fired C&L or double action for the first shot.

I believe this interpretation is: 1. reasonable and appropriate, and 2. DOES NOT fit with the guiding concepts for Prod.

The good news is that the Board can clarify this matter before the new rules go into print. I haven’t reviewed the USPSA Bylaws, but the Board may have the ability to simply do a unanimous written consent or call a special telephonic meeting to clarify this issue.

Question: What was the Board’s purpose in removing "first shot must be fired double action?"

[Vlad]

Well once again, I think time number 99, there is no rule allowing single action in Production. If you have a DA/SA gun and it is not in DA mode, I would suggest it is therefore in SA mode. If my logic on this is wrong, would someone please point out to me where it has gone astray.

Here is why I think that logic is flawed:

1) DA/SA guns may or may not fire the first shot in DA but the second, third, and so on, will be in SA.

2) By your reading, the second shot makes the gun a SA gun for the rest of the COF.

3) By the new wording, there is no difference between the first and second shot,

thus if shooting the first shot SA makes a DA/SA gun a SA gun, so should the second. That means all DA/SA guns are SA guns.

4) SA guns are not allowed in Production

ERGO, by your logic no selective fire weapon is allowed in Production. Do you actually believe that?

In any case, I am glad that this discussion has led people to make sure that the new rules are clear on the issue, which was my whole request to begin with.

Vlad

[Gary Stevens]

We were in total agreement until you got to the SA pistol part of your post. I am making a note to myself to keep my contract law arguements to a miminum when you are around

The intent was, at least to me, to allow the shooter, after the start signal, to have the option of taking a long or hard (which most times are one in the same) shot in an easier mode. Rather than stroking the 97 pound first shot that some DA guns have, the shooter could thumb cock and maybe get a 4 pound trigger pull for that hard shot. I think it is a verification of the saying "No good deed ever goes unpunished". By attempting to give the shooter a break and make it a little easier (and perhaps more fun) we unleased a firestorm of wordsmithing that is now going to take another BOD vote to add clarification language. Maybe this is not a bad thing in the long run, as we can do it electronically, but I quiet honestly get tired of the continual battle over the meaning of "is".

For 25 years I have never had the problem with the rules that some others have. Of course I spend a lot of time now a days taking naps which cuts down on my rule bending efforts.

I do honestly appreciate the DRL's fixing bayonets and charging over the trench line though to keep down any potential "problems" that may have been lurking.

[ErikW]

This topic has reached the point of absurdity. Production will continue to prohibit single action only guns and will continue to require that DA/SA guns start hammer down. Nobody honestly thinks the Board would do otherwise, especially after an Area Director said so here 99 times.

The change will allow slide-racking or thumb-cocking to SA after the start signal. That's it.

We do not yet have the specific rule wording because it's not a rule yet. The Board has merely outlined the intended rule change, delegating the specific implementation to the rules commitee.

This topic is closed. A new topic discussing DA/SA starts is here.

Edited December 7, 2003 by Erik Warren