Palm vs Paper Scoring

[lneel]

How do handle the situation with Palms were a competitor protests the scoring of a target and a range master is not readily available? Can a partially scored shooter be bypassed and go on to another shooter and back to a previous shooter and how are signatures handled? How are corrections initialed?

These are all questions that need to be answered before approaching the club president to expend money that would take years before it could be recovered in time saved. Stages are torned down as soon as all score sheets are received at stats and results are posted within the prescribed hour and trophys presented to all but the shoot and scoot shooters. What can be faster than that?

No different than a paper score.....score it as called by the CRO and make a change IF the RM approves. You cannot simply skip a target on the Palm. The prelimary score can be save in the Palm without signatures and when deeemed accurate then the Scorekeeper and shooter can sign to acknowledge it as complete.

Lee

[Rob Boudrie]

Excuse me but I thought there was an hour where competitors could protest the provisional results before they became final; 9.8.3, so what where posted were provisional results.

Correct, however, the term "results" may be used to refer to provisional or final results. No claim was made that final results were published so quickly. It took exactly 1 hour, 4 minutes, for the Area 7 results to be "final" after the last shot was fired due to the posting period. Although everyone was pretty much cleared out before the hour was up (mainly because shooters checked their score and left), we waited until the official posting period was up to pack up the scoring computer and results display stations.

USPSA rules allow for completely paperless Level I matches. Level II and above must use some sort of signed hard copy backup to electronic scoring, and the hard copy is definitive in the event of any discreapency.

[matt2ace]

We have been using StageScore at DCPA for all of 2009 with great results. We went fully paperless after 4 months of using both without a single problem. I think most clubs experience the usual learning curve getting people trained to use the software. I have some people just don't want to be responsible for entering scores, but we typically have 3-4 people on each squad who can do the job. I do some pre-registration, but allow plenty of time to register on match day. It is easier if everyone is pre-registered, but it only takes an extra 10 minutes to build and download squads with StageScore.

Corrections to scores, stages, etc. are really no problem once you learn the program.

We are using Palm505s for scoring, mainly to keep cost down ($25 each for refubs vs $50+ for 515 or better). After using 505s, I would recommend spending more to Palm515s (brighter, color screen) or even Tungstens (brighter and faster processor).

Go back to paper scoring........no me.

[lneel]

Excuse me but I thought there was an hour where competitors could protest the provisional results before they became final; 9.8.3, so what where posted were provisional results.

Correct, however, the term "results" may be used to refer to provisional or final results. No claim was made that final results were published so quickly. It took exactly 1 hour, 4 minutes, for the Area 7 results to be "final" after the last shot was fired due to the posting period. Although everyone was pretty much cleared out before the hour was up (mainly because shooters checked their score and left), we waited until the official posting period was up to pack up the scoring computer and results display stations.

USPSA rules allow for completely paperless Level I matches. Level II and above must use some sort of signed hard copy backup to electronic scoring, and the hard copy is definitive in the event of any discreapency.

Exactly, that is why "we" used Oneil portable thermal printers to print (2) copies......one for the shooter and one for match staff. Yes, I am a nut about printer too and have ~24 of them....or more.

Lee

[NMBOpen]

Excuse me but I thought there was an hour where competitors could protest the provisional results before they became final; 9.8.3, so what where posted were provisional results.

Correct, however, the term "results" may be used to refer to provisional or final results. No claim was made that final results were published so quickly. It took exactly 1 hour, 4 minutes, for the Area 7 results to be "final" after the last shot was fired due to the posting period. Although everyone was pretty much cleared out before the hour was up (mainly because shooters checked their score and left), we waited until the official posting period was up to pack up the scoring computer and results display stations.

USPSA rules allow for completely paperless Level I matches. Level II and above must use some sort of signed hard copy backup to electronic scoring, and the hard copy is definitive in the event of any discreapency.

Exactly, that is why "we" used Oneil portable thermal printers to print (2) copies......one for the shooter and one for match staff. Yes, I am a nut about printer too and have ~24 of them....or more.

Lee

Just for reference, which model do you use for your printer fleet?

[lneel]

We have been using StageScore at DCPA for all of 2009 with great results. We went fully paperless after 4 months of using both without a single problem. I think most clubs experience the usual learning curve getting people trained to use the software. I have some people just don't want to be responsible for entering scores, but we typically have 3-4 people on each squad who can do the job. I do some pre-registration, but allow plenty of time to register on match day. It is easier if everyone is pre-registered, but it only takes an extra 10 minutes to build and download squads with StageScore.

Corrections to scores, stages, etc. are really no problem once you learn the program.

We are using Palm505s for scoring, mainly to keep cost down ($25 each for refubs vs $50+ for 515 or better). After using 505s, I would recommend spending more to Palm515s (brighter, color screen) or even Tungstens (brighter and faster processor).

Go back to paper scoring........no me.

I have found Tungsten T's T2's and E's to be what I consier the level of horsepower needed.....I have been able to find them in the $50-60 range but it does take some work to find them at that price. I think the T's and T2's are a tougher unit that the E's. The E2's and E3's seem to be solid but the price goes up and they are really only faster during that initial competitor sorting.

Lee

[Mark K]

Is the Palm system even realistic for matches w/o preregistration?

Mark

[lynn jones]

Is the Palm system even realistic for matches w/o preregistration?

Mark

it would be possible, as long as there are not too many shooters. i have the master palm with everyone that shot with us already registered. the walk-ins just take a couple of minutes to input. no big deal.

lynn

fyi, we're using the PSS program bu peter cunningham.

[Jim Norman]

You could have a full match of "Walk-In" shooters. Each shooter would be given a number when you do the squadding. There is no real upward limit to this. Our last match we had a full squad of walk-ins. I had set up 5 squads each with 4 walk-ins added, This takes care of a no-show and an added shooter or two per squad. We also squad a full Walk-on squad just in case. Worked this time.

I support the use of higher level palms. Contrary to popular belief you can change the batteries in most Palms.

Jim

[BayouSlide]

Is the Palm system even realistic for matches w/o preregistration?

Mark

We've been doing so successfully with our monthly matches this year. Does seem to take an extra 15 minutes or so before hammer down at the end to set up. Received an e-mail that this weekend, registration will cut off at 8:30 a.m. with a streamlined registration so we can get started promptly at 9 a.m.

Curtis

[Rob Boudrie]

I support the use of higher level palms. Contrary to popular belief you can change the batteries in most Palms.

The Australian (Cunningham) program runs fine with the low end Palms. The last I checked, StageScore (the Rod Cassidy program) needed a slightly faster Palm to work nicely for match scoring.

By "change the batteries", I assume you mean "put in a fresh rechargeable".

[Jim Norman]

I support the use of higher level palms. Contrary to popular belief you can change the batteries in most Palms.

The Australian (Cunningham) program runs fine with the low end Palms. The last I checked, StageScore (the Rod Cassidy program) needed a slightly faster Palm to work nicely for match scoring.

By "change the batteries", I assume you mean "put in a fresh rechargeable".

Yes, takes a few minutes, but it is not beyond most of us to do. Several online sources that also include the very small screw and torx drivers in a kit.

The Titanium Palms do require soldering. THe 515 are plug it in.

Stagescore is what we are using. Learning curve for the RO is about 5 minutes. for the stats shack a couple hours at most.

Just ordered a printer to try out. I'll see how that works before ordering more.

Jim

[Matt P.]

A couple of negatives that I can think of is that the software's source code is controlled by one individual. If something happens to him, then the program (and your investment) could go with it. Second, please don't quote me but, I believe palm has officially dumped the OS.

[Jim Norman]

All true, but for the moment there are plenty of palms.

Electronic scoring works. someone will fill the gap. There is USPSA, Steel, IDPA and Multi-Gun.

There is a void that will be filled. We may not make someone wealthy, but someone will make a reasonable buck out of this. I just wish it were m

Jim

[ALBY]

we use them for every match in YORK. we did it for a rifle/pistol this year (twice)and i scored the topton multigun on palms this year. they work great. anyone who doesn't like the Palms can spend 6 hours to score an 8 stage match/80 shooter match on paper and tell me how they like them after that.

[slip knot]

I used one for the first time at Oldbridge two weeks ago and found it very easy

to pick up. Latter in the week, I down loaded the one to pracice on and it did help me understand the working of the unit. I just hope that they don't die in the middle of a

match and every thing is lost.

[lynn jones]

I used one for the first time at Oldbridge two weeks ago and found it very easy

to pick up. Latter in the week, I down loaded the one to pracice on and it did help me understand the working of the unit. I just hope that they don't die in the middle of a

match and every thing is lost.

backup to another palm and have a paper backup as well. see attached file

mssa_new_score_sheet.pdf

[rvb]

As a competitor, I'm not a huge fan. Glare makes it hard to see your hits/time when someone else is holding it. Snafu's such as scoring the wrong competitor can really back things up, and if it's a major match I really want a paper copy of my score that I can take w/ me (cc of something "official", not just me writing down stuff).

That said, the job of MD and scoring is a big task handled entirely by volunteers, so if that's what they prefer to ease their burdon while providing for my entertainment, so be it.

Never done scoring with one, so can't provide input from that perspective.

-rvb

[Matt P.]

What I would like to see is USPSA contract a developer to write a package to be used with a common platform like Windows,. Argue if you must but it is the standard and most cost effective and feature orientated structure around. This way, our sport would own the software, and there will never be an issue on reliance of outdated hardware, obsolete operating systems and individual owned source code. To me, it makes better business sense.

[moverfive]

Is the Palm system even realistic for matches w/o preregistration?

Mark

Our club in the Nashville area has another unique situation in that we run our local match four times in a weekend. So I created a spreadsheet that allows for a fast registration of a new shooter and an easier way to squad the shooters for each running within the match. The point being - the data going to the Palm can easily be manipulated to fit your needs.

There was another comment about making corrections or needing a ruling from a match official. In our case, we use regular sized scoresheets for the RO and shooter to sign. This size of paper allows notes or whatever to be written that will allow the Palm to be allow the next shooter to start and be scored. Then once the ruling on the previous shooter is made, corrections to the score within the Palm is easily made if necessary and then the resulting score can be written, verified, and signed by all on the paper scoresheet.

One point that I haven't seen anyone make - using the Palms actually reduces the time per shooter. The moment the last target is entered into the Palm, the scorekeeper is heading straight to the paper scoresheet to write the final score. In a typical sized squad, I think it is easy to say that 10 - 15 minutes per squad is saved with use of the Palms.

[Matt P.]

Is the Palm system even realistic for matches w/o preregistration?

Mark

One point that I haven't seen anyone make - using the Palms actually reduces the time per shooter. The moment the last target is entered into the Palm, the scorekeeper is heading straight to the paper scoresheet to write the final score. In a typical sized squad, I think it is easy to say that 10 - 15 minutes per squad is saved with use of the Palms.

I might disagree with the time savings. If typical squad is say "10" saving 1 - 1 1/2 minutes per shooter sounds fairly optimistic. I would say if anything, I would tend to believe that the palm system slows down scoring. I have personally seen it take longer to record the scores scores or the score keeper yell "wait" too many times.

I think paper is a better method until something electronic comes along that really fits the bill.

[moverfive]

Is the Palm system even realistic for matches w/o preregistration?

Mark

One point that I haven't seen anyone make - using the Palms actually reduces the time per shooter. The moment the last target is entered into the Palm, the scorekeeper is heading straight to the paper scoresheet to write the final score. In a typical sized squad, I think it is easy to say that 10 - 15 minutes per squad is saved with use of the Palms.

I might disagree with the time savings. If typical squad is say "10" saving 1 - 1 1/2 minutes per shooter sounds fairly optimistic. I would say if anything, I would tend to believe that the palm system slows down scoring. I have personally seen it take longer to record the scores scores or the score keeper yell "wait" too many times.

I think paper is a better method until something electronic comes along that really fits the bill.

That would depend on who is running the Palm.....if the person is familiar with using the Palm, it is quicker. If they are not familiar, it would therefore be slower as they are still learning how to use it. That is why for major matches we always have RO's that are very familiar with the Palm - therefore, the time savings for us is real.

[Rob Boudrie]

The Palms really speed things up at a Level I (no paper required) match where the staff is already familiar with the procedures.

AS to USPSA hiring a consultant - the time involved to specify and manage such a project is considerable, and the costs are non-trivial. I recently got back from several days holed up in a hotel in the middle of nowhere discussing USPSA development projects that are mission critical and already on the roadmap. I just don't see the time becoming available to start another major project.

As to new vs. old hardware: Old is cheap; New is slicker. Build for old hardware and people will want it on new hardware. Build it for new hardware, and people will claim it's too expensive to use (Imaging the cost of buying enough Ipod touches, Iphones or Windows handhelds to do an entire match). The important thing is that the concept has been accepted, and the interface is supported by USPSA. As an officially supported feature, members don't need to worry about USPSA pulling the electronic scoring interface - even if USPSA does not directly develop a program.

As to match benefit: You need to consider both the impact on the competitor as well as on the match staff. Keeping up with the scoresheets from 250+ people on 10 stages over a few days is a non-trivial undertaking.

Electronic scoring has been in use for 5+ years at a few matches, but it has only started to gain wide acceptance in the past year or two. It will no doubt evolve as time moves forward.

[BayouSlide]

I might disagree with the time savings. If typical squad is say "10" saving 1 - 1 1/2 minutes per shooter sounds fairly optimistic. I would say if anything, I would tend to believe that the palm system slows down scoring. I have personally seen it take longer to record the scores scores or the score keeper yell "wait" too many times.

I think a fairer assessment of the overall time savings must consider the fact that, with the Palms, the data is only entered once and you're done, compared to paper which must then be keyed in again by the stats people. With Palm scoring, all arithmetic is automatically tallied and the program will not allow you to add extra hits on targets or miss targets completely. I'd rather score with the slowest Palm around than with the fastest pen for those two reasons alone.

When I'm scoring, I ask the RO calling out scores to wait until I've repeated the scoring hits on the target before calling out the next one: I make sure that the entry is keyed in properly before confirming. Have the RO calling out hits sync to the Palm operation, not the other way around, and you make everything smoother and ensure the fastest scoring possible.

Curtis

[Matt P.]

I might disagree with the time savings. If typical squad is say "10" saving 1 - 1 1/2 minutes per shooter sounds fairly optimistic. I would say if anything, I would tend to believe that the palm system slows down scoring. I have personally seen it take longer to record the scores scores or the score keeper yell "wait" too many times.

I think a fairer assessment of the overall time savings must consider the fact that, with the Palms, the data is only entered once and you're done,

Curtis

I completely agree from that stand point of overall times savings versus stage time savings. so if we were to optimize time savings, why not just run master and slave terminals to EzWin Score? Then you eliminate even the download time from palm. That might be a better investment since automation is usually done at the level II or III matches and there are usually 3 RO's on a stage and a nice big laptop screen is easier on the aging eyes.

Just a thought.