Major Power Factor Rifles in USPSA

[ken hebert]

This thread is starting to twist like several others and sounding like what is really wrong with USPSA rules without offering suggestions as to make an improvement.SUGGESTION #1: LOSE 9/10THS OF THE RULES.

By way of example the 6.8 makes major but USPSA is the only place it has to play since most of the other matches do not use major/minor for rifle and require 30 caliber or better for major which is only heavy metal. Should there be some common ground here?

Possible solutions as I see them in no order of preference:

1. Insert major/mionor scoring in non USPSA matches. Of course this would mandate some major changes in non USPSA match scoring.ABSOLUTELY NOT! WHY MESS UP A GOOD THING?

2. Eliminate major/minor scoring in USPSA matches effectively leaving all but HM to be 223. HM will not like 6.8 or other new sub 30 calibers in HM because of softer reocil.MMMM... NAH, NOT A GOOD IDEA.

3. Lower the size bullet that you can use in HM in all matches (USPSA and non USPSA) so that HM is defined by power factor rather than caliber. Same disadvantage as 2 above.HM IS FINE LIKE IT IS, IF YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN DONT PLAY.

4. Make all rifles shoot head to head regardless of caliber.INTERESTING.. RUN WHAT YA BRUNG, LIKE IN THE OLD DAYS..

There are consequences to being uniform BUT MORE FUN IN DIVERSITY.

.

One thing that I think might help HM in USPSA is to reward more for the caliber, more respect if you will. Specifically make it a one round per target required, two if you want. For expample: 1 A hit = 10pts, 1 C hit = 8 pts, ect. If the shooter puts more than one on paper then it is what it is, 1 A + 1 C = 9pts. IMO this might draw more shooters to bring out their .308's, which are in the neighborhood of $0.50 per trigger pull, and is sometimes kinda hard to finance in a 150rd match. I know some outlaw matches run this way..

Edited November 2, 2009 by ken hebert

[paraman1]

I have only shot a handful of USPSA matches in the last 5 years as a little thing called LIFE got in the way . I have however shot many of these so called '"Outlaw" matches and even hosted a few . The two things I came away from all of these matches with was the fact that no matter what the rules are someone is gonna push the envelope as far as they can to try and gain some percieved advantage . The other thing I learned is that most everyone else is gonna stand around bitching and moaning about how unfair it all was .

As a Match Director your job is to attempt to make everyone compete using a set of rules that everyone is following . As a competitor its your job to take advantage of every advantage you can to win within that set of rules . Some people are gonna have better financial backing and others are gonna have God Given or (Gasp! say it isn't so) Hard earned talent . Some people will win and some people will lose , those are the simple facts , if you don't like them make up your own game .

As per the norm , thats just my .02 , YMMV , Objects in mirror are closer than they appear , Yada Yada , Blah fricking Blah .

[Flexmoney]

As far as accomodating those shooters that want to shoot Major PF but do not with to meet the current floor of 320PF, why should matches start making accomodations now, its never been a concern before, with other issues.

That is why I asked about how Major power factor was set. What was the basis for it?

I'd hope that the answer wouldn't just be "because that is the way we've always done it." Sure, that is easier, but is it relevant?

For that matter, are the shooting test (stage designs) relevant?

Are we propping up .223 ?

[bigbrowndog]

Flex, I don't know why 320PF was chosen, I do know it used to be higher. Perhaps mil ball 308 was the basis, for the original much like 45 ball was for pistol originally,......eons ago!!!!

I personally like the distinctive difference between the minor and major PF floor, it makes for a definite difference in recoil and guns that are useable, or at least it used to. Progress being what it is, at least the 30 Gremlin made it with the existing PF floor much like 9mm did in pistol. However the fact that there really are very few good USPSA matches to shoot here in the US, and most long range targets are steel, it remains to be seen whether or not it will actually be useful or not. I know several IPSC competitors have given up on shooting Major for various reasons, one of which is the lack of feasibility or advantage, the other being cost. They do shoot paper at LR, and you would think the advantage would exist there, but apparently its questionable.

As for scoring, sadly everything is driven by PISTOL, be it rules stage design, or definitions. For example in IPSC a short course is like 6-10 rounds, for a pistol where revolvers and single stacks are used that makes sense, but for a rifle where 20 and 30 round mags are the norm it makes no sense, it should be 10 - 15 rounds. Stage design is driven by pistol, as well, other than RM3G, most matches utilize 1 - 3 LR rifle stages, and the rest are hoser stages with a rifle, or CQB as is the current term???? Shotgun and pistol can be utilized much easier for that task, and yet we continually find ourselves "shooting pistol stages with our rifles". PF scoring is based on pistol as well there is no distinction for shooting a much more powerful weapon, so scoring is the same whether you shoot the target with a rifle or a pistol??????????? Why not have 2 sets of scoring one for pistol and one for rifle. At which point higher points for major rifle "may" cause a shift in prominent caliber or preferably allow 2 to play on a more level scoring field.

I personally would like to see a single A/C hit neutralize a target with 308, this would allow 20 and 25 round magazines to compete more evenly against 40,50,60+ round mags in 223. If Kurt and I were doing a rifle match instead of a SG match that would be the scoring program I would vote for, then all you would need is optic and iron class and be done with it.

trapr

[Charles Bond]

Trapr I agree with 90% of your post. IMO the reason most of us here shoot steel at long range is simply turning shooters on a stage. Would it not be a reaonsable compromise to shoot steel targets at long range where the A zone falls out when hit?

If we apply to a practical aspect to long range, in the real world if you hit a living target, it goes down. You can not make a paper target do that. I am not saying that we should not use paper at long range. Quite to the contrary, it would make the shooters slow down and actually take some careful aim. On the flip side, if you have more than 150 shooters to get through a match, you need to be able to turn the stages to stay on time and shooting steel does give the range staff scoring assistance and the shooters like the instant feedback they receive from engaging steel.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles, you really need to read the reports from Norway, as far as turning shooters there is not a problem with paper targets, I really do not understand why you and others feel that its just out of the question, When I have seen it happen with my own eyes, perhaps you should fore go a few matches here in the states and visit overseas for a good IPSC rifle match, I can refer you to one going on in Finland next year, when you return then perhaps you will understand my frustration. You will also have a much better understanding of what decent LR target presentation is.

trapr

[Sako92S]

On next summer rifle match here in Finland will consist at least 3 300m stages, 3 150m stages, 3 75-100m stages, 1 50m stage, 5-6 short range 0-30m stages.

Includes moving targets 75-100m ranges (fast as running moose)

There will be also "running and gunning" close range stages. (30-40 rds required.)

Total stages 15 planned to shoot + PF

Edited November 3, 2009 by Sako92S

[Charles Bond]

Charles, you really need to read the reports from Norway, as far as turning shooters there is not a problem with paper targets, I really do not understand why you and others feel that its just out of the question, When I have seen it happen with my own eyes, perhaps you should fore go a few matches here in the states and visit overseas for a good IPSC rifle match, I can refer you to one going on in Finland next year, when you return then perhaps you will understand my frustration. You will also have a much better understanding of what decent LR target presentation is.

trapr

I am fine with paper targets on LR rifle but I am not the MD at the USPSA nationals. If you want to effect some change as to what is and is not shot there, you need to go further up the chain of command at USPSA. We have shot paper out to 150 yards at our area 6 match but since we are lmited to one LR stage, it really becomes more of a function of how much help we have and who can bring some range transprotation as to what we can place on this stage.

As to going to Finland, I would love to go and assuming I had the money, which is a stretch, finding the time would be a barrier.

If it were up to me USPSA would be offering stand alone rifle matches like Finland and stand alone shotgun matches like the Pan Am as a regular part of the shooting menu. For us to market only to pistol shooters and to multigrun shooters appears to me to miss a significatnt portion of the competition market.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Charles Bond

[diablodawg]

One thing that I think might help HM in USPSA is to reward more for the caliber, more respect if you will. Specifically make it a one round per target required, two if you want. For expample: 1 A hit = 10pts, 1 C hit = 8 pts, ect. If the shooter puts more than one on paper then it is what it is, 1 A + 1 C = 9pts. IMO this might draw more shooters to bring out their .308's, which are in the neighborhood of $0.50 per trigger pull, and is sometimes kinda hard to finance in a 150rd match. I know some outlaw matches run this way..

This is a great idea, and would make major (and therefore HM divison) much more viable and attractive to shooters. It would also serve to reduce an equipment race in HM because my Garand would be more competitive within the divison as I would probably only have to do 2 or so reloads on a stage; right now it is not very competitive (at least til I get time for serious practice) and never will be all that competitive with 20 round ARs, M1s, FALs, and G3's. This would mitigate much of the lack of long range paper by greatly speeding up major rifles at close range.

[Mike Ezell]

I really like the idea of the 30 Gremlin. I'm pretty familiar with it as well. As you can see, I call it a 30 Major.

My link

I shoot Benchrest primarily with it now after redesigning the chamber specs a tad. I finished 8th in the country in IBS Varmint For Score competition last year.

My link

I shoot 118gr bullets at 3000fps in my bolt gun using Viht N120. That's NOT an AR load!

I came on here after the latest "Front Sight" magazine came out with an article on the gremlin to clear some things up and to help with developing the cartridge for AR's.

It's a great round as is. Accuracy will suffer somewhat with 7.62x39 brass and most of it is junk compared to Lapua or Alexander Grendel brass but can be used with some prep and an eye on pressures.

I'm happy to help any way that I can.

Sincerly---Mike Ezell

[SGJennings]

I really like the idea of the 30 Gremlin. I'm pretty familiar with it as well. As you can see, I call it a 30 Major.

My link

<snip>

Mike has been working the wrinkles out of the 30 Major for quite some time. He's been kind enough to work with me extensively in getting mine tuned. It's a wonderful round. I'm already having a second rifle built in it.

Here is the final target of a 200 yard match that I shot today at Bluegrass Sportsman's League in Lexington, KY.

[djeffers]

The AMU guys had 40 round Gremlin mags. They were god awful long but they had them. Looked to be standard mags with very long aluminum extensions (which were polished BRIGHT).

Watching them shoot their cadence seemed to be right with the .223 shooters.

Kevin,

I make both 32 rnd and 45 rnd "Higher Capacity" magazines for all makes of 308, these magazines that you saw couldn't have been any uglier than mine :-)

Bill

Have you posted any pics of those anywhere on this forum?

[Religious Shooter]

After reading Front Sight's coverage of the Nationals... I don't understand why the .30 Gremlin.

According to the article they are loading 125 grain NBT (.366 BC) up to 324 PF. They take Grendel brass and neck it up to .30. Furthermore the round looks like it was fired at least once possibly for fire-forming(?).

Out of my 24" AA upper I can get 322 PF using 123 Lapua Scenars (.547 BC) and A2520. One guy is saying he is getting 2620 fps with 123 Lapua (also 322 PF) and H4895 out of his 24" JP. If he had used A2520 he would have had an even higher PF.

Necking up, fire/case-forming, using a lower BC bullet, etc. and getting just a 2 PF difference... why?

[Mike Ezell]

Necking up can be accomplished by fireforming or just by expanding it up. To me, the brass looks like necked up brass w/o FF, but it's hard to say. It works either way.

As to why they would use it as opposed to the 6.5 Grendel, if firing the same weight bullet from the same case, at the same velocity from a 6.5 and a 30 cal, the pressures will be much lower in the 30 because it has a much better expansion ratio and larger piston area with the 30. Peak pressure happens in the first 3-4inches of the barrel. If you look at it with that in mind, you essentially have a bigger chamber when max pressure occurs. That's why the pressures are lower. MPF can be attained with the 6.5 Grendel but has proven to be at above max pressures for the bolt to last. I've taken the 30 to the breaking point as well. It's alot faster than needed for major when it fails. The same can't be said of the 6.5 with same weight projectile.---Mike Ezell

[Mike Ezell]

The AMU guys had 40 round Gremlin mags. They were god awful long but they had them. Looked to be standard mags with very long aluminum extensions (which were polished BRIGHT).

Watching them shoot their cadence seemed to be right with the .223 shooters.

Kevin,

I make both 32 rnd and 45 rnd "Higher Capacity" magazines for all makes of 308, these magazines that you saw couldn't have been any uglier than mine :-)

Bill

Have you posted any pics of those anywhere on this forum?

The only mag mod that need to be made for reliability is to the front rib in the sides of the mags where the actual bullet makes contact with the mag. It's too deep in a standard mag. Rounds tend to bunch up at the front...if that makes any sense A standard 30rnd mag can hold 26 30Major rounds. Maybe they just wanted more capacity ---Mike Ezell

Edited March 16, 2010 by Mike Ezell

[Religious Shooter]

MPF can be attained with the 6.5 Grendel but has proven to be at above max pressures for the bolt to last.

Can you please link where you got that info from? Are you saying the AA chart's data isn't good?

The loadings that the guy with the JP used and my loads are directly from the AA chart. The loads are max book.

Thanks.

[Mike Ezell]

In the group target pic above, the top target is the "record" 5 shot group at 200 yards. The bottom is a sighter target(practice) with a pretty good attempt at making a smiley face. Now that's some confidence in your equipment to do that in a match. --Mike Ezell

[Mike Ezell]

MPF can be attained with the 6.5 Grendel but has proven to be at above max pressures for the bolt to last.

Can you please link where you got that info from? Are you saying the AA chart's data isn't good?

The loadings that the guy with the JP used and my loads are directly from the AA chart. The loads are max book.

Thanks.

I'll back up a little bit because of the 24" bbl. I get major with lower pressures with the 30 in a 20" than the 6.5 does with a 24", but have you not heard of all the broken Grendel bolts? AA rates their bolt to 50,000 psi. The 7.62 bolts aren't rated even that high. You are pushing the limits and if you get a lot of 2520 that's a little "hot",(or any number of other pressure issues) you're over the limits of the AA bolt and the 7.62 bolt. The 6.5 Grendel forum has plenty of info on documented bolt failures. It'll likely stand it for a while, but how long is a while in a 3 gun or combat environment? Reliabilty is the name of the game...not to mention safety. I've got a pressure trace system that can prove that statement...well below max---Mike Ezell

[Religious Shooter]

I'll back up a little bit because of the 24" bbl. I get major with lower pressures with the 30 in a 20" than the 6.5 does with a 24", but have you not heard of all the broken Grendel bolts? AA rates their bolt to 50,000 psi. The 7.62 bolts aren't rated even that high. You are pushing the limits and if you get a lot of 2520 that's a little "hot",(or any number of other pressure issues) you're over the limits of the AA bolt and the 7.62 bolt. The 6.5 Grendel forum has plenty of info on documented bolt failures. It'll likely stand it for a while, but how long is a while in a 3 gun or combat environment? Reliabilty is the name of the game...not to mention safety. I've got a pressure trace system that can prove that statement...well below max---Mike Ezell

No I am not aware of all the broken Grendel bolts. You have to help me out... I entered "bolt failure" at the 65grendel.com forum and didn't get any relevant threads. What search words should I use to read up on all the broken Grendel bolts?

And are you saying the max load for A2520 is dangerous? The AA chart doesn't list a pressure for the load. Can you tell me what the max pressure is for 6.5 Grendel and what the pressure is for the A2520 load?

[Risasi]

I'll back up a little bit because of the 24" bbl. I get major with lower pressures with the 30 in a 20" than the 6.5 does with a 24", but have you not heard of all the broken Grendel bolts? AA rates their bolt to 50,000 psi. The 7.62 bolts aren't rated even that high. You are pushing the limits and if you get a lot of 2520 that's a little "hot",(or any number of other pressure issues) you're over the limits of the AA bolt and the 7.62 bolt. The 6.5 Grendel forum has plenty of info on documented bolt failures. It'll likely stand it for a while, but how long is a while in a 3 gun or combat environment? Reliabilty is the name of the game...not to mention safety. I've got a pressure trace system that can prove that statement...well below max---Mike Ezell

No I am not aware of all the broken Grendel bolts. You have to help me out... I entered "bolt failure" at the 65grendel.com forum and didn't get any relevant threads. What search words should I use to read up on all the broken Grendel bolts?

And are you saying the max load for A2520 is dangerous? The AA chart doesn't list a pressure for the load. Can you tell me what the max pressure is for 6.5 Grendel and what the pressure is for the A2520 load?

Something tells me you won't get a coherent answer. Likely some hearsay passed down as the Gospel truth (you know, from his cousin's girlfriend's sister's husband...) There are bolt failures, but I don't think it's any higher than the normal 5.56/.223 chambering.

More than likely any perceived increase for bolt failures in 6.5G is hot-rodded handloads, or due to out of spec bolts being used. Like someone grabbing a 7.62x39 bolt and using it instead. Bill Alexander has made subtle changes in the bolts he sells from the run of the mill stuff that's out there.

Personally running a non-AA bolt wouldn't scare me, but if I was using one for 3-gun I'd stick to AA bolts only, and not get crazy with pushing the envelope on hot loaded ammunition.

[Mike Ezell]

I'll back up a little bit because of the 24" bbl. I get major with lower pressures with the 30 in a 20" than the 6.5 does with a 24", but have you not heard of all the broken Grendel bolts? AA rates their bolt to 50,000 psi. The 7.62 bolts aren't rated even that high. You are pushing the limits and if you get a lot of 2520 that's a little "hot",(or any number of other pressure issues) you're over the limits of the AA bolt and the 7.62 bolt. The 6.5 Grendel forum has plenty of info on documented bolt failures. It'll likely stand it for a while, but how long is a while in a 3 gun or combat environment? Reliabilty is the name of the game...not to mention safety. I've got a pressure trace system that can prove that statement...well below max---Mike Ezell

No I am not aware of all the broken Grendel bolts. You have to help me out... I entered "bolt failure" at the 65grendel.com forum and didn't get any relevant threads. What search words should I use to read up on all the broken Grendel bolts?

And are you saying the max load for A2520 is dangerous? The AA chart doesn't list a pressure for the load. Can you tell me what the max pressure is for 6.5 Grendel and what the pressure is for the A2520 load?

I found 112 pages of info on broken bolts on the 6.5 Grendel forum here. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/search.php?searchid=338517&pp=25&page=1

The data is based on 50,000 psi rating as max..same as the bolt'max rating, so technically it's not too hot, but fatigue will cause failures eventually at max pressures. Have you chronoed your load? Do you know your ACTUAL chamber pressure or are you basing it off of load data? Why is it that we have a starting load and a max load, and are instructed to work up to max with caution? A max load in one gun may well be over max in another. Powder burn rates vary from lot to lot, as do velocities. As to whether or not I agree with the published max loads as being the Gospel...no I do not,and don't for many cartridges. That said, I use the Grendel case,necked up to 30 cal. at much higher than stated pressures in my benchrest rifles(bolt action). Here's another interesting read on pressures and loads predicted by Quickload. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6820&highlight=quickload---Mike Ezell

[Mike Ezell]

I'll back up a little bit because of the 24" bbl. I get major with lower pressures with the 30 in a 20" than the 6.5 does with a 24", but have you not heard of all the broken Grendel bolts? AA rates their bolt to 50,000 psi. The 7.62 bolts aren't rated even that high. You are pushing the limits and if you get a lot of 2520 that's a little "hot",(or any number of other pressure issues) you're over the limits of the AA bolt and the 7.62 bolt. The 6.5 Grendel forum has plenty of info on documented bolt failures. It'll likely stand it for a while, but how long is a while in a 3 gun or combat environment? Reliabilty is the name of the game...not to mention safety. I've got a pressure trace system that can prove that statement...well below max---Mike Ezell

No I am not aware of all the broken Grendel bolts. You have to help me out... I entered "bolt failure" at the 65grendel.com forum and didn't get any relevant threads. What search words should I use to read up on all the broken Grendel bolts?

And are you saying the max load for A2520 is dangerous? The AA chart doesn't list a pressure for the load. Can you tell me what the max pressure is for 6.5 Grendel and what the pressure is for the A2520 load?

Something tells me you won't get a coherent answer. Likely some hearsay passed down as the Gospel truth (you know, from his cousin's girlfriend's sister's husband...) There are bolt failures, but I don't think it's any higher than the normal 5.56/.223 chambering.

More than likely any perceived increase for bolt failures in 6.5G is hot-rodded handloads, or due to out of spec bolts being used. Like someone grabbing a 7.62x39 bolt and using it instead. Bill Alexander has made subtle changes in the bolts he sells from the run of the mill stuff that's out there.

Personally running a non-AA bolt wouldn't scare me, but if I was using one for 3-gun I'd stick to AA bolts only, and not get crazy with pushing the envelope on hot loaded ammunition.

Well, me and my cousin's girlfriend's sister's husband did our own research in lieu of taking other people's word for it, using pressure testing equipment that I own when developing the 30 Major, along with speaking directly with Bill Alexander. One of the changes he made to the Grendel bolt was he made it deeper than a x39 bolt..023" deeper IIRC. Feel free to check my numbers. This keeps people from swapping a x39 bolt in the place of the Grendel bolt, so they don't interchange. Other than that, your post seems to support mine. Thanks. --Mike Ezell

[Risasi]

Well, me and my cousin's girlfriend's sister's husband did our own research in lieu of taking other people's word for it, using pressure testing equipment that I own when developing the 30 Major, along with speaking directly with Bill Alexander. One of the changes he made to the Grendel bolt was he made it deeper than a x39 bolt..023" deeper IIRC. Feel free to check my numbers. This keeps people from swapping a x39 bolt in the place of the Grendel bolt, so they don't interchange. Other than that, your post seems to support mine. Thanks. --Mike Ezell

I was thinking it was .011 deeper, but I could be mistaken.

And guys have used 7.62x39 bolts in Grendel barreled rifles. No, I don't think it's a very good idea, but it has been done. Especially now that you have guys loading and fire-forming 7.62x39 brass (also not my first choice).

Regarding your pressure testing. On paper it would make sense that your 30 Major would have a lighter pressure spike, and I will take you at your word. You have done your homework. I read some of your posts on other forums a few years back, and found your wildcatting the 6.5G interesting. I just forgot who you were. You have something to bring to the table. So for pulling your cousin's girlfriend's sister's husband into this conversation, I apologize.

Still, I don't think it's fair of you to make a blanket statement about the "common" bolt problems in 6.5G rifles using barrels and bolts made to Alexander's specs. Especially when you have your own horse in this race. I've followed Arne Brennan's project since 2004 when I first got wind of it. A lot has changed over the years.

Frankly, I think there is room for both 6.5G and 30 Major, and I don't see the two cartridges as direct competitors. And as for a strictly 3-gun use rifle, particularly the context of this thread, the 6.5G would not be my first choice.

[RWilke]

What is wrong with shooting a light 308 load with a rifle optimized for it, like with a shorter gas system? Seems it would be a lot cheaper than buying Lapua brass.

[ken hebert]

off the top of my head i'd say weight and magazine capacity. (even with my 32rd mags) a 308 chassis system, even with a turned down barrel, carbon handguard, skeleton stock, ect is always gonna be heavier than an ar15 of similar configuration. and still cost 3x to shoot.