benos Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 As I was fetching with Mr. Tucker on the porch last night, I had an interesting insight into the relationship behind the meaning of two words. Nothing really earth shattering, but when you get a new glimpse in a way you haven't seen before, it's fun. I'm sitting in my chair, and he dropped his ball where I couldn't quite reach it, and was standing there with the all-to-familiar "get it" look in his eyes. Spontaneously I said to him, "you're going to be the loser because I've got more patience than you." No idea where that came from. In a moment he trotted over and set his ball on the chair like he usually does. My first thought was, whoa, there's something to that. At that moment, I was patience and Mr. Tucker was desire. And patience always wins. All kinds of analogies started coming to mind. Of course shooting was first. Desire prevents visual patience. Most commonly the desire to go fast, or finish. You'll shoot to your capacity when there is zero desire and 100% patience. Normally, both are present in various levels, with resulting fluctuations in performance. Along with desire comes caring. Some of the recent good threads on "not caring" and it's effect on performance came to mind. Me and BigJoni were talking on this topic at lunch. She brought up an interesting dichotomy that some have may have experienced. She said, "You have to care or you wouldn't be there." But then to perform at your best, you have to totally not care." Very true. Experiencing that and arriving at a clear understanding of it is a liberating experience. Without knowing it, I feel the above draws many of us to competition initially. At first we just shoot. Mostly because it's fun, challenging, and perhaps you're competitive by nature. But then after years of training one day you have your first "lights on" experience. That one experience then keeps bringing you back. It isn't just bullets and gear, form and technique any more, there's a whole "new" realm to dip into. Which was always there, but daily life doesn't provide the challenge needed to find it. You start to realize the lessons you learned in the high-pressure, demanding, IPSC-shooting environment apply to everything you do in life. And without the powerful challenge of shooting a stage to perfection, you may have lived your whole life without glimpsing the lessons you learned on the range. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 It seems you could very easily associate desire and impatience with each other. Looking at it another way: how about a desire to shoot alphas as quickly as possible? Liking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Santiago Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 It seems you could very easily associate desire and impatience with each other.Looking at it another way: how about a desire to shoot alphas as quickly as possible? Liking it. Add to it, the visual patience to see what you need to see to accomplish the desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 17, 2009 Author Share Posted October 17, 2009 It seems you could very easily associate desire and impatience with each other. I'm with you. Looking at it another way: how about a desire to shoot alphas as quickly as possible? Even though I used to say that, it would get me in trouble. One that helped me a lot was: I'm shooting quickly but I'm not in a hurry. Really I only needed: I'm not in a hurry. (Some will argue about the "not" issue, but it worked for me so I don't care.) I did better with just an extremely detailed visualization of everthing I was going to see. No desire - this is what I'm going to see and do. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Looking at it another way: how about a desire to shoot alphas as quickly as possible? Even though I used to say that, it would get me in trouble. One that helped me a lot was: I'm shooting quickly but I'm not in a hurry. Really I only needed: I'm not in a hurry. (Some will argue about the "not" issue, but it worked for me so I don't care.) Thank you Brian. I struggle with this every time I shoot a stage. Could we also say Patience = Being in "The Zone" ??? The Zone, where time seems to slow down, and we feel slow ....... is simply us being patient with the situation at hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Hmmmm... I see patience having a significant component of desire in it. If you didn't have desire- you woudln't need patience at all. Patience is just a more "controlled" desire... And with the not caring part... not sure I'm on board with doing best when not caring. I understand the idea of not being obsessed with the outcome which can lead to peak performance... but not caring, means well, not having the desire or patience to achieve peak performance. Maybe I'm just confusing myself. lol Edited October 17, 2009 by lugnut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 (edited) Patience and desire give meaning to each other. Edit: I suppose I should elaborate. If I am speaking, there are words and there are also the spaces between the words. Without the spaces the meaning of the sentence is unclear. If the words represent the desire to convey the message, the spaces represent the patience that allows the words to have meaning. Try to describe the concept of light without making any reference to darkness. If there were no desire, there would be no opportunity for patience. From that view, patience is born of desire, and does not need to compete with it. When these two are in balance, we shoot well indeed. Edited October 17, 2009 by Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
North Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Try to describe the concept of light without making any reference to darkness. Shamelessly stolen from wikipedia. Light is electromagnetic radiation, particularly radiation of a wavelength that is visible to the human eye (about 400–700 nm, or perhaps 380–750 nm[1]). In physics, the term light sometimes refers to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not.[2][3] Four primary properties of light are: * Intensity * Frequency or wavelength * Polarization * Phase Light, which exists in tiny "packets" called photons, exhibits properties of both waves and particles. This property is referred to as the wave–particle duality. The study of light, known as optics, is an important research area in modern physics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleA Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 If you are ultimate patience and shrug off care and desire, what then dictates your speed. I understand that while actually shooting the speed at which the sights return to an acceptable position controls how fast you are shooting, but when you bring movement from shooting positions A to B to C I feel you have to have the desire to get there fast and efficiently or you'll end up loosing valuable time trotting to the next position. I ask because what I lack in shooting speed I tend to make up by being quick on my feet. I dont have to think about every step I just need to have the desire and consciously decide to haul a$$ in order to get from A to B as quickly as possible. Since conscious thought brings you out of the zone, does that mean you have to enter and then consciously leave the zone multiple times on a complex stage with lots of movement to shoot it at full capacity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11.43mm Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 While I may need more time to apply these corollaries to shooting, I appreciate the utility in my personal (interpersonal) life now and presently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 For me patience is maturity of the mind and closely related to my concept of wisdom. For some they get it at 12 years old, or maybe in their first year of shooting and others, never. I remember telling somebody "You need to dumb down your mind". Just trying to get him to get out of concious to the sub shooting with no expectations, judgement or "mind" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted October 17, 2009 Share Posted October 17, 2009 Patience is one of my faults. You can spend your whole life patiently waiting for the right conditions. Patience accomplishes nothing. Desire is needful, but always giving in to desire is disaster. You can't say Tucker lost, he got what he wanted. He just needed the patience to find a way to get the ball, other than you fetching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 19, 2009 Author Share Posted October 19, 2009 Since I have a powerful innate urge to be always rushing, bringing patience into my shooting and life improved both markedly. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ben b. Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I know it's irreverent, but what to do when the wife has more patience than desire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 I know it's irreverent, but what to do when the wife has more patience than desire? I think you can either start another topic or see a counselor!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Since I have a powerful innate urge to be always rushing, bringing patience into my shooting and life improved both markedly.be I think this goes for the majority of people. The days of patience seem to be long forgotten. Its so easy to get caught up with the hear and now and being impulsive. I see this alot with young inmates that I work with. There is patience and there is patience as it relates to our sport. Though by defintion they are the same our sport requires an entirely different level that is not seen or experienced by alot of people. I probably been up in a tree a hundred times sitting for 12+hrs waiting for a nice buck during the rut. Getting there an hr before light and not getting out of the tree until after dark. I used to think I had alot of patience until I started shooting this sport. Its at a entirely different level.. Also it seems the better you get and the more you understand that need for an awareness of a higher level of patience the harder it is to perform at that upper level. I can look at a performance of mine now based on the understanding I have of patience(in a yr it will be a different understanding as skills progress) and it seems harder and harder to shoot that perfect match even though the performance is so far above where it has been in the past. Your getting closer and closer to that performance but as you progress so does your expectations. It might be nothing more than finally having an understanding what your capable of doing if everything comes together(stage plan, accuracy, subconscious shooting and patience) and shooting a perfect stage or match. The performance can be leaps and bounds above where you where a yr ago but that ability to catch a glimpse of what could be seems to make your perfect performance further away. We have an idea that we put in our heads about how good we are and how good we can become at our absolute best. As our skills progress and we start understanding patience as it relates to our sport I see both of the limits we have in our mind gone and new ones set. This is what I mean by that top performance getting further away. If you think the best you can shoot Stage X is 8 seconds and after yrs of practice you put in your mind you should be able to shoot it in 6.5 seconds. Through the progression and skills and understanding you find that your limits have changed and might be 6 seconds if you have that perfect run. More time passes and you have a new understanding of the sport, your mental game and your progression of skills that time might be 5.75 seconds. Though its a quarter of a second, which isn't much, the better you get the harder it is to get "there". From the outside looking in someone could view your performance as great but as individuals we catch glimpses of what could be and it lets us set new standards of what we are capable of. This happens at all stages as we progress through shooting and D all the way up through GM. Having patience while running at full speed and coming up to 3 close target and then transitioning out to a difficult shoot that requires precise hits can give a new understanding of what it really is. Not sure if it makes any sense, just rambling Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 Thanks for bringing us back on track. It all made good sense to me. Patience - it's there as soon as I notice I'm rushing. Over and over and over... be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I attended a safety meeting at work yesterday. We are studying a behavior based approach to industrial safety. The curriculum includes learning to recognize these 4 mental states in ourselves. Fatigue, Frustration, Rushing, and Complacency. These have been identified as the 4 most common mental states that people are in right before getting hurt on the job. Of course, you all know that I was thinking how this would also apply in shooting and to the things we discuss here at BE.com. Fatigue, Frustration, Rushing, and Complacency.....come to think if it, when was the last time I really trashed a stage that one or more of these mental states wasn't present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 23, 2009 Author Share Posted October 23, 2009 Great stuff Sam! Did the training include any specific methods or techniques to help us become more aware of when we are in one or more of the 4 mental states? be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 (edited) To give proper credit, the system we are studying is called "SafeStart". They say the best way is to identify your personal tendency or "key" or have someone else help you notice it. The theory is that, by becoming self aware, we can monitor our mental state and stop accidents from being caused. Since I have a powerful innate urge to be always rushing, bringing patience into my shooting and life improved both markedly.be I'd say you have your "key" pegged already, Brian! My primary "key" is complacency. Not a good tendency in a natural gas processing environment! I tend to go on "auto pilot" and lose awareness of the details. It would be like busting a dozen sub-one draws and drifting off on a few of them. Not very safe. And I've caught myself doing just that. As soon as I realize that I'm not "on task", I pause and re-direct. Some people get frustrated more easily and that is their "key". And we are all subject to fatigue at a long match or long work day. It is interesting that any one of these four mental states are linked to causing at least one or more, of four specific work hazards. From studying accidents that have happened, they found 4 common errors that caused injuries. 1) Eyes not on task, 2) Mind not on task, 3) Standing in the line of fire, (related to stored energy) and 4) Losing traction,balance, or grip. It isn't a perfect parallel to shooting, but darn close. (Line of fire might translate to "muzzle" or 180.) So, these are the identified mental states of people right before they either get hurt, or recover, and avoid an accident. Now, as a shooter, what "keys" are causing us to blow a stage or even worse to commit an unsafe act on the range? If we start to stray into a bad mental state, we can recognize it an re-direct before tanking the stage. How many times have we seen someone go into full hoser mode after having a gun malf? Frustration causing-Mind not on task? There may be some shooting and life applications here? Edited October 24, 2009 by Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleA Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Knowing the states of mind that tend to degrade performance is a great tool for before and during a stage. If you just know that you are "off" it can take longer to make the mental adjustment and correct it than if you can immediately identify whats going on. This applied to me at our last match. I, like many others, am a choke artist when it comes to classifiers. Because I aim for perfection any little screw up sends me over the edge. I finally managed to keep myself on track mentally for the entire match including the classifier. I had a miss fire which caused me to half forget how many shots I had fired at the target and ended in what seemed like an eternity of not pulling the trigger. I remember distinctly thinking the words "dont worry about it, just shoot". I recognized frustration coming(one of my biggest obstacles) and was able to shut it down in a literal split second because of preparation. Turns out that even with the miss fire and pause to remember what shot I was on, the classifier ended up being one of my best and the 2nd best of the match under an open guy that was on fire that day. My classifier was only 70%, Im not a bad ass, but that match was huge step for me into a new realm of shooting. I now realized just how important being mentally prepared is to shooting at the top of your game. Fatigue, Frustration, Rushing, and Complacency.....come to think if it, when was the last time I really trashed a stage that one or more of these mental states wasn't present? Ive learned(still learning) to address one of these states, now to learn to recognize and deal with the others effectively. "Knowing is half the battle" -GI Joe Great Post! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 How many times have we seen someone go into full hoser mode after having a gun malf? Classic example. That's almost everyone's initial, natural tendency. Like every natural reaction that is not the most beneficial one, it must be countered with self-awarness. Also in this case, some re-programming. Realizing that after a malfunction I'd be rushing and probably with a poor grip/position, I came up with a mental self-command I'd say as soon as the jam was cleared: Relax, and look at the sights like you've never seen them before. When I pulled that off, I'd often do some of my best shooting of the match after clearing a jam. Question: Why not just shoot like that all the time. Answer: Because I'm a stupid human, and cliing to my desires too much. There may be some shooting and life applications here? Yes. There's nowhere the "cure" of becoming self-aware doesn't apply. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miranda Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Try to describe the concept of light without making any reference to darkness. Shamelessly stolen from wikipedia. Light is electromagnetic radiation, particularly radiation of a wavelength that is visible to the human eye (about 400–700 nm, or perhaps 380–750 nm[1]). In physics, the term light sometimes refers to electromagnetic radiation of any wavelength, whether visible or not.[2][3] Four primary properties of light are: * Intensity * Frequency or wavelength * Polarization * Phase Light, which exists in tiny "packets" called photons, exhibits properties of both waves and particles. This property is referred to as the wave–particle duality. The study of light, known as optics, is an important research area in modern physics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light and a fine definition of light it is... in a short sentence.... explain; why do we need a definition of light ? back to desire and patience the two decidedly help describe the limits of the other. in one person, the two are often in accord, desire fuels the patience to save for a new toy. in two different people, they are often in contention, haggling over the price of the new toy when one has not saved enough... miranda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 the two decidedly help describe the limits of the other I agree Miranda, by viewing the two as complimentary to one another, I don't have such a tendency to see one as being better than the other. Balance is maintained. Unless, of course, I begin to desire more patience..... Becoming more self aware would cure the desire for many things. Many of our drives to succeed, aquire more, achieve ends, ect are attempts to quiet the longing that only awareness can bring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 Many of our drives to succeed, aquire more, achieve ends, ect., are attempts to quiet the longing that only awareness can bring. Holy crap. I may send that out in Maku mozo! be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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