Steve Anderson Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 I spent so much time working on my draw out of the new holster, trying to get it right, that now my draws out of my old holster are better than they ever were. The defense rests. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 If he would have bought the "trick" holster first and learned on it, you wouldn't have had to regroup and take a step backward before progressing. The prosecution Rests, Your Honor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I spent so much time working on my draw out of the new holster, trying to get it right, that now my draws out of my old holster are better than they ever were. Wait! Are you implying that practice somehow improves your performance?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSeevers Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Yes it takes thousands of reps to learn/unlearn something. That's why when I advise someone I say. "Learn it right the first time". It will save time unlearning it. I know some real good shooters the push the mag catch with their left thumb. It was fast for a while in club C class but now they cannot unlearn it. Guess who can't do a sub 1.3 reload? Or a fast el-prez? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Joe Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I think it is well agreed upon here that money spent on a quality gun and allied equipment is money well spent. My personal preference to help keep new shooters from buying "starter equipment" is to loan them a gun, mags, and pouches for a few matches. After that they can decide if the interest is sufficient to buy long term gear or not. Now, what of other "gear"? I think you can buy skill, it's just a question of when to invest the cash for max. skill gain. For instance, reloading. At a certain point factory ammo holds you back. Not because it is crappy, hard recoiling, inconsistent stuff(it is), but because you can never buy enough to get good. For me I feel like I made a 10% or more performance jump by reloading. Why? because in 3 months I've been able to shoot 6K+ rounds, have 2K more components sitting on the bench and still have more money than when I was shooting maybe 600 rounds a month. Reloading money makes sense now, maybe it did not for the first year of my game. Timers, chronos and training aids? Soon I will have access to a 24hr indoor private club to practice. At this point I need these things. This is gear to help skill, as it is right now i am only under a timer at matches. Can you really make M or better without all these trinkets? What's more, there's books, DVDs, classes, and such. I entered the 90's yesterday and finally bought a DVD player so I can buy PS vol 1-5. Soon I need to buy the book, maybe take a course. Is this buying skill? I think the key is not buying a bunch of stuff, but to have enough experience so you can accurately and honestly declare when you gear is not good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Some of the best shooting I have ever done was in recent weeks, with a CZ75B, a Fobus holster, and Uncle Mike's magazine holders. Must be a lesson in there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 If he would have bought the "trick" holster first and learned on it, you wouldn't have had to regroup and take a step backward before progressing.The prosecution Rests, Your Honor. You missed the point of Steve's post by about 500 miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Bottom line, If you can get the best or newest equipment. Buy it!!!! If your wife asks if its new, just say I just "modified it myself and did not cost me anything" Just make sure your pistol does not become a rifle and she sees both at the same time Its not the improvement. Its LOOKING GOOOOOOOD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zorba Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Buy the best you can afford and dont be afraid to change or modify anything. Dont stagnate keep moving forward. If you can get .10 of a second off your draw with a different holster use it. It all adds up. Remember your equipment and you should become one, take any advantage you can. losing a match by a ball hair raises allot of questions in ones mind about every aspect of our selves and our equipment from the sear to the ammo we load in the gun.Its all related.. Food for thought just my 1 rand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 Flex I didn't miss the point at all. It was all the draws out of the new that helped the draw PERIOD...practice. We're beating a dead horse here. I get what he is saying, I just don't happen to agree with his methods to get there. Apples and oranges, neither is right or wrong, just different. If we all did it the same, it would be dull... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 It was the time that was required, not the new holster. The holster served a god purpose by inspiring the practice, and convincing the wearer that more speed was available. SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 While some of us know that we could still improve by practicing with entry level gear, it's just plain more fun to play with high end toys I'm an advocate of buying the best gear one can afford 'cause then one has no excuses for poor performance ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 23, 2003 Share Posted December 23, 2003 I'm an advocate of buying the best gear one can afford 'cause then one has no excuses for poor performance ... People with excuses will have them regardless of their equiptment. No one is going to beat you because of your gear (assuming it works 100%) unless you let them beat you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Just to muddy the waters a bit... The 009 I had WAS a trick holster when I bought it - it's just that it's an old trick now. I do believe that practicing the draw with the Limcat is what made me better, not the Limcat itself, though the draw from the new holster, when I get it right, does feel faster than what I get from the 009, even now (less drag). But, on the other hand, my first dedicated, bought-for-the-sport IPSC gun (after starting with a stock Beretta) was a Taurus .40 (the American Handgunner centerfold pistol done by Jack Weigand). That was a mistake my new shooting buddies could not talk me out of. I had a sudden leap in performance a year later when I had a Para limited gun built (and, no, I will not be talked into buying a S_I ). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 That was a mistake my new shooting buddies could not talk me out of. I had a sudden leap in performance a year later when I had a Para limited gun built (and, no, I will not be talked into buying a S_I ). At least your buddies won't have to talk you out of that choice you will realize that one on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 No one is going to beat you because of your gear (assuming it works 100%) unless you let them beat you. That's a pretty extreme example of it ain't the indian it's the arrow philosophy. I have come to appreciate the fact that most folks don't put enough human resources behind the gear they already have and will probably not realize their full potential with what their current gear. Still it's an undeniable fact that some guns are just easier to shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Yep, llike you said few of us will ever reach our full potential with the gear we have, but does having better gear mean we don't shoot as well as maybe we think we do? Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 L2S I don't understand your last post. What does having great gear have to do with not shooting as well as WE THINK we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 If "the gear" is all that important, maybe the guys with the factory guns are really more skillful because those guns aren't as tricked out as my SV, so if I win with my SV does that mean I really won, or I bought a victory with my gear? I would hate to win just becasue I had better arrows. I want to win based on skill, and since the best shooters I know all shoot similiar guns then I shoot my SV when I shoot with them. At the club level I am shooting a Sig with a cheesy holster and cloth magpouches for score and my SV for practice. I want the new guys to see it isn't the arrow, but the Indian You can do a heck of a lot with a stock pistol and gear if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 L2S You pick your division and shoot as well as you and the gear allow. the advancements in gear are not sufficient to allow you to shoot poorly and still win, even if you have great gear. Some people will never get it. They want to be GM's but show up with a poorly fitted ill running pistol, poorly loaded ammo, not gauged, and other gear not sufficient for the intended purpose and still lament the fact that you are beating them and you only started shooting 4 months ago, compared to their 3 years. If you don't try to take all the variables out of it, so you can compare shooter to shooter, you'll never know if it is you or the gear holding you back. You are doing the new guys a disservice. You should let them see you shoot the best you are able. If it scares them off, they weren't suficiently interested to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hey QuicksDraw! Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Before you drop a lot of money on gear decide if you love the sport, not like it, but love it. Shoot matches with what you have. If you think you will be spending a lot of time shooting matches and want to compete against yourself and other shooters, get the best you can right off the bat. It saves time and money. Mind you, I believe it’s the shooter and not the gun, but you get what you pay for and the equipment will behave as such. The sooner you get the proper equipment the sooner you can begin to practice with it. Get the best equipment you can and practice with it as much as you can. If you are a brand new shooter don’t watch the other brand new shooters at the match, you don’t want to program their mistakes. Watch the guys who are expected to win, and when you go home do what they do. They practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 24, 2003 Share Posted December 24, 2003 Some people will never get it. They want to be GM's but show up with a poorly fitted ill running pistol, poorly loaded ammo, not gauged, and other gear not sufficient for the intended purpose and still lament the fact that you are beating them and you only started shooting 4 months ago, compared to their 3 years. Just to make it clear, I shoot 2 guns in the local matches, one so the local guys have something to compare themselves to and the other (SV) for practice during the winter, in the spring/summer I'll switch. If the gear doesn't work 100%, that is a different story, but not what this thread is about. When a guy with a 2K pistol gets beat by someone using a $700 Sig and $30 belt/holster/pouches it motivates them too, and if they get better, I get better win/win. ps I do have all the best gear too, I just have found after about 10K that shooting the $700 pistol is just as fun and it has never been the gear that has held me back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 L2S: I gotta ask. Do you think you could go as far, as quickly with your Sig as you did with your SV? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I do, if you mean to aquire the same level of shooting skills, maybe even quicker. Especially if I had spent the same amount of $ on 9mm ammo .vs 38 super and .40 ammo I wouldn't finish as high overall, but I am convinced my skills would be better. I've shot some of the best stages of my life recently with my SV and I have only been dry fire practicing with my Sig. Working with a sloppier trigger, more sight lift and smaller mag well have really helped me focus on the details of shooting. I know I'll be ahead this spring when the ground thaws and I go back to my SV for real matches. See, I went to open class and got to A really quick, but I didn't have many of the correct skills because you can get away with a lot shooting open. With a stock el-cheapo gun, you can't get away with much and do well. Now that I am a Master, I realize the fundamental shooting skills are what you need to master to be a master, and trick gear has nothing to do with that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 26, 2003 Share Posted December 26, 2003 I'm going to try one more time and then let it go... If you were digging a tunnel out of prison, would you rather do it with a spoon, or a shovel? Both will get you there...hell, I'd use a backhoe it I had one avaliable. I really don't understand your comments about shooting two guns, one so the local guys have something to compare their efforts to and then the SV in the winter. Suit the gear to the task. My philosophy comes from my background where there were no classes, and we all shot heads up and only one gun division, what you drag to the line. If you didn't have the best gear avaliable, you got thumped. I know it is a bit different now with so many divisions and classes from GM to U. If you want to shoot the Sig great, shoot it with the best Sig gear you can get. If you want to shoot the SV, great, shoot it with the best SV gear you can get. I know this sounds tacky, but I couldn't care less what the local guys thought about my shooting, or what I was shooting or if I beat them by 4 minutes and 500 match points every month. I am there to win, not to look "swell" to my fellow shooters and downgrade what I shoot to keep it close for their benefit. You don't see Tiger Woods hit poor shots cause he wants poor VJ Singh to be close, on the contrary, he pours it on and hopes to win by 20 shots...me too. Your comment about the guy with the 2k gun getting beaten by the 700 buck Sig is contrary to the premise of different divisions in the sport. If we were still in the '70s I'd say yes, it would motivate him to work harder, but the guywith the 2k gun goes home and thinks about how many other guys with a 2k gun he beat, not that some hot rock whipped on him with a box Sig. I agree it is fun to shoot, period. If you want to go to the match to have fun, great, but I go to win. For a guy like me, I adhere to the KISS principal, and believe in boiling it down to the lowest denominator. That means taking all the variables out that I can, so that I base my performance on what I am capable of, not I shot good but my 8 dollar Uncle Mikes mag holder made me fumble my reload and if I had a Safariland 773, I could have taken 3 seconds off my time, and added 2.0 to my HF. I know we are never going to get together on this, and that is OK with me. There are different ways to skin any cat and you are certainly welcome to yours. When you decide to be the best at this thing that you can be, it revolves around these: Physical, Mental, Technique, and Equipment. You need the best of each that you can get your arms around to achieve that goal. Peter Drucker helped me understand MBO, and I approach almost everything I do in that manner. What is the objective, what does it take to get there...for me, part of getting there is the BEST gear avaliable. Have a great one Tightloop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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