Bullet glancing off barrel prop

[waxman]

I realize that props are considered hard cover, and no bullet that passes through them scores either penalty, or scoring target. It is easy to tell which one, by looking for the grease ring. Ok having said that how does that work with a bullet that glances off a plastic barrel and then impacts lets say a no shoot? In this case there was a grease ring, and the hole was elongated. Either way, lets say it hit perfect. Does this hit count for penalty, or score?

[Lee King]

I realize that props are considered hard cover, and no bullet that passes through them scores either penalty, or scoring target. It is easy to tell which one, by looking for the grease ring. Ok having said that how does that work with a bullet that glances off a plastic barrel and then impacts lets say a no shoot? In this case there was a grease ring, and the hole was elongated. Either way, lets say it hit perfect. Does this hit count for penalty, or score?

Full diameter hit on the barrel then no, it doesn't count. Partial diameter then it does. IF you can determine the hit on the barrel. That's part of the problem with using barrels as hard cover. You have to tape/mark the previous hits somehow to be able to determine.

And I believe you can designate barrels as soft cover. I saw that at the Alabama Sectional.

[Dan Hefta]

I realize that props are considered hard cover, and no bullet that passes through them scores either penalty, or scoring target. It is easy to tell which one, by looking for the grease ring. Ok having said that how does that work with a bullet that glances off a plastic barrel and then impacts lets say a no shoot? In this case there was a grease ring, and the hole was elongated. Either way, lets say it hit perfect. Does this hit count for penalty, or score?

If the hit was perfect and not elongated, it would be very hard to convince me not to count it as a hit.

[Lee King]

I realize that props are considered hard cover, and no bullet that passes through them scores either penalty, or scoring target. It is easy to tell which one, by looking for the grease ring. Ok having said that how does that work with a bullet that glances off a plastic barrel and then impacts lets say a no shoot? In this case there was a grease ring, and the hole was elongated. Either way, lets say it hit perfect. Does this hit count for penalty, or score?

If the hit was perfect and not elongated, it would be very hard to convince me not to count it as a hit.

You can't look at the shape of the hit. I've seen shots make perfect holes after going through a barrel and I've seen elongation to a big hole from tumbling. You have to see the hit on the barrel and determine if it went completely through or just glanced off. To do that you have to duct tape/cover/mark all of the previous hits so you know which one. If you can't determine which one it is, I don't think you have a choice but to call it a hit.

If you really want to be sure you can call it, put up a hardcover target overlapping the barrel or a no shoot. OR move the target away from the barrel.

[L-10_shooter]

We usually designate barrels as soft cover.

[waxman]

This particular hit, left a line, which was the only line, on the barrel, it then glanced off, and impacted about 8" further right then it would have, if it had not hit the barrel, and then impacted a no shoot. The bullet left about a 60 caliber hole but still had a grease ring.

[Nik Habicht]

Designating barrels as soft cover s the way to go --- anything else becomes a scoring/arguing nightmare quickly.....

[waxman]

So if it is soft cover, the hits count? even if they are deflected? what if they impact a steel popper on the far edge of the range? is that not still considered a range equipment failure?

[SA Friday]

And what would make this any different from a wall leg hit that deflected it and not full diameter? Or any other hard cover prop for that matter.

full diameter hit/pass through, then it's a miss. not a full diameter hit score it where it hits.

[Lee King]

I guess that would depend. At A8 there were two poppers behind walls on Stage 1. I believe the intention was to make you shoot them from between 2 wooden walls. But if you leaned you could see the L popper from the outside of the L wall. The poppers activated clamshells behind the opposite wall (L popper activated R clamshell). It was a definite advantage to shoot the L popper around the L wall because you could see the clamshell clearly to the R.

Anyway, the RO's stated during the walkthrough IF you shot the wall and the popper fell, it was automatic REF. However, we had a guy on our squad graze the wall. Partial hit. It counted.

Is there a point where a partial hit would be REF? I.e. if it deflected it 12 ft. and hit a popper instead of a paper target right next to it.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Lee King

[wide45]

Bullets are not range equipment. Failure of competitor equipment is not grounds for a reshoot.

[SA Friday]

I guess that would depend. At A8 there were two poppers behind walls on Stage 1. I believe the intention was to make you shoot them from between 2 wooden walls. But if you leaned you could see the L popper from the outside of the L wall. The poppers activated clamshells behind the opposite wall (L popper activated R clamshell). It was a definite advantage to shoot the L popper around the L wall because you could see the clamshell clearly to the R.

Anyway, the RO's stated during the walkthrough IF you shot the wall and the popper fell, it was automatic REF. However, we had a guy on our squad graze the wall. Partial hit. It counted.

Is there a point where a partial hit would be REF? I.e. if it deflected it 12 ft. and hit a popper instead of a paper target right next to it.

The only reshoot would be a full diameter bullet hole in hard cover and the bullet passed through, even if it deflected, and knocked down a popper. If the bullet hole is not full diameter, then the hit counts be it a barrel, wall, wall leg or any other prop considered hard cover.

You bounce a bullet off a barrel, not full diameter, to the A zone of a target, it's an A. Do the same thing and the bullet hits a NS, it's a NS. Do the same thing and it hits the perf on a C and the NS, then it's a C and a NS. All regardless of the delfection from the hard cover. Full diameter hole, it's a miss. The fact that it hit a barrel (always hard cover unless otherwise specified in the WSB) is irrelevant unless the hit was a full diameter bullet pass through.

[Lee King]

Bullets are not range equipment. Failure of competitor equipment is not grounds for a reshoot.

Steel IS range equipment. 9.1.6.2 states otherwise:

9.1.5.4 If a bullet strikes partially within the scoring area of a paper or

metal target, and continues on to strike down or hit the scoring

area of another metal target, the subsequent metal target will

also count for score or penalty, as the case may be.

9.1.6.2 If a bullet strikes wholly within hard cover, and continues on to

hit a plate or strike down a popper; this will be treated as range

equipment failure (see Section.4.6). The competitor will be

required to reshoot the course of fire, after it has been restored.

9.1.6.4 If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues on to

strike down a scoring metal target, the fallen target will count for

score. If a bullet strikes partially within hard cover, and continues

on to strike down or hit a metal no-shoot, the fallen no-shoot

or hit thereon will count for penalty

So in the instance you make a glancing blow off of a barrel and hit a popper 15 feet to the right.. looks like it still counts AS LONG AS it does not pass wholely through any other paper or hardcover. It also appears a partial diameter off of a popper that hits another popper counts as well.

If I were an RO and saw a popper way off the right fall, I would probably stop the shooter because I don't know it would be obvious it wasn't REF. As far as I would know the wind blew it over. I guess if you had the wherewithall to recognize what happened though...

Edit - to clarify steel is range equipment.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Lee King

[Lee King]

I realize that props are considered hard cover, and no bullet that passes through them scores either penalty, or scoring target. It is easy to tell which one, by looking for the grease ring. Ok having said that how does that work with a bullet that glances off a plastic barrel and then impacts lets say a no shoot? In this case there was a grease ring, and the hole was elongated. Either way, lets say it hit perfect. Does this hit count for penalty, or score?

If the hit was perfect and not elongated, it would be very hard to convince me not to count it as a hit.

9.5.5 Enlarged holes in paper targets which exceed the competitor’s bullet

diameter will not count for score or penalty unless there is visible evidence

within the remnants of the hole (e.g. a grease mark or a “crown”

etc.), to eliminate a presumption that the hole was caused by a ricochet

or splatter

[ima45dv8]

And I believe you can designate barrels as soft cover. I saw that at the Alabama Sectional.

That was an early request I made when first reviewing stages for the match (DrawandDuck agreed and said that was his original intent).

Here's why:

Designating barrels as soft cover is the way to go --- anything else becomes a scoring/arguing nightmare quickly.....

[Lee King]

And I believe you can designate barrels as soft cover. I saw that at the Alabama Sectional.

That was an early request I made when first reviewing stages for the match (DrawandDuck agreed and said that was his original intent).

Here's why:

Designating barrels as soft cover is the way to go --- anything else becomes a scoring/arguing nightmare quickly.....

At an area match they used tires instead of barrels. I didn't see anything saying otherwise so I assume they were hardcover (I could've missed it). There were a couple of stages where I don't know how you could call it if you hit the tires first. I saw a shooter on my squad hit a tire then the paper. After pasting the stage I looked and I couldn't tell where the hit was on the tire even though I saw it hit. He got the points and in that case I'd say rightly so.

[ima45dv8]

Yeah, it has to be declared in the WSB's (each one individually) if a prop or barrier is going to be called as Soft Cover.

[LPatterson]

Things of this nature are why Match Directors/Range Masters should make an actual WSB instead of just the stage design sheet, i.e., Classfier page or similar.

[Chuck Anderson]

We usually designate barrels as soft cover.

We do? That's news to me.

[Chuck Anderson]

To answer the OP's question, yes he gets the no shoot. The only way he wouldn't get the no shoot is if it passed completely through the barrel and it was not designated as soft cover. A corrolary to that would be an edge hit on a popper that continues to strike a no shoot. You're still stuck with the penalty.

Also, it's not a good idea to rely solely on the appearance of the bullet hole to determine if it went through a prop. They either need to be taped or marked in some other way or not hard cover ir they're likely to absorb bullets. I've seen bullets do lots of weird things, some still have grease rings after a known hard cover penetration and other don't or tumble with no interference.

[kimel]

Hard cover barrels are a pain in the butt. Unless they start the match in pristine condition you have to spend a bunch of time taping them. Then the tape may or may not represent the original conformation of the barrel and it becomes harder to determine full vs. partial diameter hits on the tape.

Like Nik said...scoring nightmare. Been down that path and won't willingly go down it again as a CRO/RM. Hard to make clearance times when you are waiting for the RM to come make a call every third or fourth shooter.

And as those bullets whiz around inside the barrel I always find my pulse racing a bit...especially for a well shot up barrel.