conrad Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 We had a competitor shoot 2 of the sticks off of the copper tunnel at our last match. He was awarded a reshoot. I feel that it was due to shooter action and he should have got the penalties. How should it have been scored? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck223 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 My read suggests the reshoot was likely an error. The tunnel needs to be built so the competitor bumping the sides won`t dislodge a roof section, but shooting one?? In my corner of the world, that would have been two penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 10.2.5 In a Cooper Tunnel, a competitor who disturbs one or more pieces of the overhead material will receive one procedural penalty for each piece of overhead material which falls during the course of fire. Overhead material which falls as a result of the competitor bumping or striking the uprights, or as a result of muzzle gases or recoil, will not be penalized. No reshoot and he should have received two penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 (edited) one of the reasons I heard was that it was the last 2 sticks so he gained an advantage. Because he could stand up sooner than everyone else. Which is not an advantage cause he would have had 20 points in penalties Edited September 6, 2009 by conrad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 6, 2009 Author Share Posted September 6, 2009 By the way I have nothing against the guy. I don't even know what shooter he was. I just want a rule clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 If he shot 2 of the sticks off a Coope Tunnel, besides him getting the penalties, I hope you have tall enough berms to catch those rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chills1994 Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 Could someone post up a pic of this Cooper Tunnel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 I'm just curious exactly how the situation would arise where one would shoot the sticks on a tunnel? Was he engaging a target or just throwing rounds downrange? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 one of the reasons I heard was that it was the last 2 sticks so he gained an advantage. Because he could stand up sooner than everyone else. Which is not an advantage cause he would have had 20 points in penalties If that was the reason then a every shooter that bumps a stick/sticks off would get a reshoot because they could stand up sooner or have a "competitive advantage". Competitor caused the stick/sticks to fall by his action which is why the penalties are assessed in the first place. He should have taken the penilities, as with most reshoots it was no better when he shot it again. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrawandDuck Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 If he shot 2 of the sticks off a Coope Tunnel, besides him getting the penalties, I hope you have tall enough berms to catch those rounds. I was thinking the same thing, how in the HECK did he "shoot" two of the sticks????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted September 6, 2009 Share Posted September 6, 2009 If he shot 2 of the sticks off a Coope Tunnel, besides him getting the penalties, I hope you have tall enough berms to catch those rounds. Shot them before entering the tunnel so they did not go over the berm. Tunnel was against a wall with a port in the middle that required you to shoot several targets from with in tunnel. On the exit of the tunnel were several low targets that you could either engage before, while in, or after exiting the tunnel. MDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 My opinion is that the overhead material was disturbed by the competitor (his bullet striking two sticks), thus a penalty. I don't believe shooting the sticks would qualify as "muzzle gases or recoil", which would be the only provision in this situation that would be an exception. 2 procedural penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Did the competitor happen to shoot the sticks off while engaging other targets? Targets that could be seen, hence were legal to engage, from where he engaged them? And in the process he managed to dislodge a couple of pieces of the Cooper tunnel? If so, poor stage design/construction. I could see a reshoot for range equipment failure, but there's no basis for procedurals for dislodging the sticks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) here is thew stage and it was shot before he went into the tunnel. I believe it was one of the 2 hard cover targets Tunnel_of_Love.DOC Edited September 7, 2009 by conrad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Did the competitor happen to shoot the sticks off while engaging other targets? Targets that could be seen, hence were legal to engage, from where he engaged them? And in the process he managed to dislodge a couple of pieces of the Cooper tunnel?If so, poor stage design/construction. I could see a reshoot for range equipment failure, but there's no basis for procedurals for dislodging the sticks.... With what has been revealed since the thread started, I'd have to agree. The first words of 10.2.5 state, "In a Cooper Tunnel,...." [emphasis added]. I can't see how what he did outside of the tunnel would fall under that rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave.O Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The tunnel that Conrad built was only 4ft high at best, I heard of the infraction at the match, but, did not witness it. However, I am trying to wrap my mind around not being able to shoot over the tunnel, it was only 4ft tall.. Just my opinion.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 The tunnel that Conrad built was only 4ft high at best, I heard of the infraction at the match, but, did not witness it. However, I am trying to wrap my mind around not being able to shoot over the tunnel, it was only 4ft tall.. Just my opinion.. The targets were on either 3ft or 4ft sticks if I remember right so they were low targets. He would of been shooting down and its was with an open gun. The last couple of sticks were hit. Also the targets were probably 3-4 yards from the Cooper tunnel and probably at least 10yds from the shooter. I was 50/50 on whether to shoot it before the tunnel. You just finished engaging 3 targets and had to turn left towards the Tunnel and those 2 targets where right there. If I would of done it I would of shot it on the move before the tunnel which I bet he probably did because he is a very good Master class shooter. I know when I shoot on the move I'm much lower duckwalking so thats how the sticks were probably hit. There were no safety issues involved with this. Its hard to get a picture unless you were at the match. I'm sure some video will be out shortly. As far as the penalty I'm not sure on that one. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 ...as with most reshoots it was no better when... shot...again. I OWN reshoots! (mindset) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Did the competitor happen to shoot the sticks off while engaging other targets? Targets that could be seen, hence were legal to engage, from where he engaged them? And in the process he managed to dislodge a couple of pieces of the Cooper tunnel?If so, poor stage design/construction. I could see a reshoot for range equipment failure, but there's no basis for procedurals for dislodging the sticks.... I almost put up a vision barrier to take those shots away from that location. But, left them in favor of freestyle options. (A lot of things had to happen just right for this to come up. A good enough open shooter to take those shots from that distance...medium tall tunnel, medium tall shooter, scope off-set, berm height> thus, target height, etc.)) I think I agree with the reshoot for REF. The rule just doesn't cover this, but what it does cover is similar stuff. [edit to add: I was thinking they were the two targets that were further down range...on the other side of the tunnel, with the hard cover on them? Or, were they the two targets up closer and to the left...nearer the start position?] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 one of the reasons I heard was that it was the last 2 sticks so he gained an advantage. Because he could stand up sooner than everyone else. Which is not an advantage cause he would have had 20 points in penalties I don't know that gaining an advantage has anything to do with it? (Any rule to quote there...other than "significant advantage for shots while faulting a line?) I think this would be more like shooting down range and hitting a wall support, and the wall falling over...in a manner that obviously made the stage different for this shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 You can see the stage in Chris' video, at about the 1.35s time hack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 (edited) I think this would be more like shooting down range and hitting a wall support, and the wall falling over...in a manner that obviously made the stage different for this shooter. ima45dv8 wrote "With what has been revealed since the thread started, I'd have to agree. The first words of 10.2.5 state, "In a Cooper Tunnel,...." [emphasis added]. I can't see how what he did outside of the tunnel would fall under that rule. " both of these are good points but as far as the shooting a wall support. I need time to think about that one. As far as the second one I'm gonna argue that "In a Copper Tunnel........What about when a shooter knocks down the first stick with his hat on his way into tunnel. He will most likely be leaning forward so technically he isn't in until his feet are inside the tunnel area. I don't think we need to put fault down to show when you are "in" the tunnel. Back to the what flex said about a wall support. I feel that those are not the same thing. I don't see how that would have changed or made the targets any better or worse. Edited September 7, 2009 by conrad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 I watched the video and read these posts. I am not an RO. I think it is judgment call. Cooper tunnels are rarely seen around here-although I did shoot a stage Nik designed once with one and it was cool. I think either just score the stage as shot-no penalties or reshoot it if there is some confusion in RO/MD discussion. As I understand it the main issue with Cooper tunnels is no bad gun handling-holster, etc, and knocking the top pieces off. You could put in written directions that shooting support sticks is considered hard cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conrad Posted September 7, 2009 Author Share Posted September 7, 2009 I watched the video and read these posts. I am not an RO. I think it is judgment call. Cooper tunnels are rarely seen around here-although I did shoot a stage Nik designed once with one and it was cool. I think either just score the stage as shot-no penalties or reshoot it if there is some confusion in RO/MD discussion. As I understand it the main issue with Cooper tunnels is no bad gun handling-holster, etc, and knocking the top pieces off. You could put in written directions that shooting support sticks is considered hard cover.the shooter actually shot the cross piece not the support Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 Forgot those target sticks on the hardcover targets were that tall. The targets were low and after watching the video to refresh my memory it actually wasn't all the difficult to shoot the sticks if you shot them before the tunnel because you were shooting down towards the targets. Also read the rule book while at work last night. I agree the shooter disturbed the sticks but the rules says "In a Cooper Tunnel" I would say no penalty, REF. Not set on this one though. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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