looking to get into USPSA

[smokshwn]

Google search results for "Shawn McKenna + Les Baer"

^^^ that could clear up some things for us Brian Enos forum regulars who thought Shawn was some greenhorn who was just infatuated with the Les Baer name and had a bundle of cash burning a hole in his pocket.

By his own admission he is a greenhorn to USPSA and asked for guidance. He was given some very useful and thoughtful suggestions from the forum members here. He can now choose his own path which is the wonderful part of coming here on the forums and asking advice.

Edited September 6, 2009 by smokshwn

[Chills1994]

Okay, I will clear some things up even a bit more. I didn't want to come right out and say it initially because I received some news from another forum member via private message.

Shawn is, I guess you could say, sponsored by Les Baer for the High Power rifle/Camp Perry style of (rifle) matches end of it.

In short, he is on "Team Les Baer".

Hence, he already has credit or cash with the Les Baer outfit.

Shawn is new here, so I don't want to come off as a total schmuck, which I will outright readily admit was because I just erroneously ASSumed some things.... low post count?...check! .... asking about which gun to buy?....check!....getting class and division confused?....check! .... tossing around a big name of an uber expensive but well respected gunmaker/smith?.... check!... ya add up those 4 things and a'yup, I just ASSumed Shawn was the newbie-est of noobs. I don't think I was the only one who made the same assumptions in this thread.

If Shawn had come right out and said, "Hey, I am a sponsored rifle shooter for Les Baer, and I am thinking about buying one of his pistols for USPSA competition, which one should I buy? Oh, and by the way, I live in California." That would have cleared up a lot of things right from the get go.

My apologies to Shawn. Sorry. It's a Sunday. I didn't get to shoot a match yesterday or today, so surfing the BE forums is about the closest thing to getting my shooting fix in....before I suffer from withdrawls/DT's.

I haven't browsed the Les Baer website, so I don't have a clue what is available.

What I have noticed in these high end boutique 1911 gunmakers is that none of them make a gun in stainless or have it hard chromed. So I am ASSuming Les Baer is the same way...just blued...parkerized or some sort of other tan or OD finish. Normally, I would recommend stainless just because that seems to hold up better being inserted into and drawn from kydex holsters rather quickly.

So like the others have side here....a nice big mag well/chute (the new Dawson precision ice for 1911's or the Techwell)...ambi safeties...adjustable BOMAR style rear sight.

I would also recommend an undercut trigger guard, a fiber optic front sight, a grip safety like the Ed Brown with the memory bump on it.

[Larry White]

Yep, sometimes assumptions lead you away. My advice still stands. -----------Larry

[Chills1994]

^^^ A'yup. that's why I capitalize the first three letters. I know what happens when you ASSume things.

Well, hey, at least I didn't get totally caught up in the over-react part of my OODA loop....I went right to the "A" part...A standing for apology.

My other tidbit of advice having switched back and forth from Production and IDPA's SSP division and the Single Stack and CDP divisions, shooting at minor power factor the learning curve doesn't seem so steep. Said another way shooting the "big gun", well, shooting the Beretta at minor PF is like shooting with training wheels on. Then add in that I am using the 20 round Mec-Gar mags for Limited minor and it frees me up to concentrate more on the shooting and strategizing of a stage versus kinda be frantic ..."Okay! Okay! I'm moving...I'm reloading...I'm moving...I'm reloading" BANG BANG BANG BANG "I'm moving...I'm reloading....I'm moving...I'm reloading..."

So lately that has been my advice to the newbies, especially the ones who show up sporting a Glock 17 or 34, forget about production, load your mags all the way up and shoot Limited minor.

[Shawn McKenna]

Hello All,

First I would really like to say thank you all for trying your very best to help me out on this. Second I would like to clear somethings up, I wanted to stay away from saying that I am sponsored by Les Baer until I was able to at least shoot a match and see what it was like for me, I don't want to be the guy that shows up and everyone says hey that's that guy who is sponsored by Les Baer he should be real good, or something to that effect. I just wanted to try and get some feed back on the best set up for a pistol to get started in USPSA. In short I was trying to not come off as self centered or something. However seeing the path this has gone I guess I should have just said that I am sponsored by Les and gone from there. Please accept my apologies for the misunderstanding on this.

Thanks,

Shawn

[North]

Shawn,

I have been thinking that if you add a magwell to this one you would have the ultimate single stack/L10 pistol around. I really like the two-tone look.

[98sr20ve]

Hello All,

I just wanted to try and get some feed back on the best set up for a pistol to get started in USPSA.

Thanks,

Shawn

If you filter out a lot of the stuff in this thread you should still walk away with a couple points to learn. Most importantly I would think is try to play the game with out investing in a new gun. Then you can decide what is best for you.

[M.E.Anglin]

Shawn,

I didn't see this on the other post, but if you get a single stack, you might consider it in .45, that way if you shoot any IDPA you can shoot it in CDP class

[Chills1994]

^^^ Division!

No need to apologize Shawn. At least on my end of things, I know where I went wrong, by ASSuming things. And yeah, I could see where you wouldn't want to exactly broadcast that you're a sponsored rifle shooter for Les Baer and possibly end up embarassing yourself at your first USPSA match.

But we all started somewhere....usually near the bottom...

Edited September 7, 2009 by Chills1994

[Duane Thomas]

Shawn,

The Ultimate Master is a fantastic handgun. I shot one into 2nd place overall at both the 2005 Washington and Idaho State IDPA Champsionships. If cost is truly no object, you can't go wrong with the Ultimate Master. If cost IS a factor at all, I would suggest going for the Premier II. If you're only going by catalog price, the Ultimate Master costs about a thousand dollars more than the Premier II, and when you get right down to it, all the Ultimate Master really is is a Premier II with a mag funnel and the underside of the trigger guard checkered. You could buy a Premier II, have a funnel fitted and the trigger guard checkered, for one helluva lot less than a thousand bucks and still come out ahead. (Yes, despite the folks we can't seem to register that part of your posts, I do understand you're getting a most favored nation price from Les, so all that may not apply to you at all.)

I think as your skill level in USPSA improves you'll want to open up the rear sight notch a bit for better (wider) light bars around the front sight when it's centered in the rear notch - from Les they're kind of tight. Other than that, there's really nothing you should need to do to the gun for it to be competitive, right out of the box. Myself I also went to my preferred recoil spring and mainspring weights, which differ from what Les prefers, to get the gun recoiling the way I wanted, and tweaked the sear spring a bit to adjust trigger pulls, but that's just me. To all the folks who keep harping on "You need an adjustable rear sight and ambi safety," please stop. The Ultimate Master and Premier II both have adjustable rear sights - actually except for a few guns conceptualized strictly as carry guns, there's not a Les Baer 1911 that doesn't. Though you can of course order a single-side safety lever, if memory serves me correctly the ambi safety is standard on everything.

Les Baer does - or at least did - offer hard chrome as an option. Except on one low-end (by Les Baer standards) priced gun with an oxide finish, polished blued steel is standard. Unless you're going to be carrying/using the gun in a very hot environment where you sweat all over it, or you have acid perspiration, I tend to think there's very, very little wrong with a blued gun. Les builds his hard chromed guns a bit looser than the blued guns which are "hard fit" out-of-the-box. I'd rather have the hard fit gun than the hard chrome, but again that's just me.

The two divisions that will interest you in USPSA, as has been mentioned, are Single Stack and Limited-10. Which you choose will depend on a few things: what sort of holster you want to use, where you want to wear your holster and mags, and whether you'd rather be running standard length or long 10-round mags.

In Single Stack you must use standard length magazines, and, assuming you're running a .40 or .45 at Major power factor, you may load them with a maximum of eight rounds, holsters must be of a "carry" type placed behind the hip, and all magazine pouches must be carried behind the hips. In Limited-10, as the name implies, you can use the long 10-round magazines, cut-down competition-type holsters and mag pouches are legal, and you may place them anywhere on your body you want as long as they're affixed to a belt that goes around your waist. There is a very short list of permitted features and modifications in Single Stack, things are more open in Limited-10. The Ultimate Master is perfectly legal in both however.

Personally, I would guide you toward Limited-10. Even though, theoretically, in USPSA we're limited to eight shot arrays, in reality it doesn't always work out that way. Even on an "eight shot" array, if it includes steel, a few extra rounds in-gun is mighty comforting. I actually tried shooting a USPSA match with the Ultimate Master and 8-round mags once, and even left my 10-rounders at home to FORCE myself to stick to that plan. By halfway through the match, I was bumming 10-rounders off other shooters because running 8-round mags in USPSA is a complete pain in the ass. My $0.02.

One last comment - though I'll answer any other questions you might have, of course - I'd seriously consider making the gun a .45 instead of a .40. I have never shot a Les Baer .40; I have shot the Ultimate Master, Premier II, and Monolith Heavyweight for an article, and was so impressed with the Ultimate Master I shot it in USPSA/IDPA for an entire season, they all cycled flawlessly but they were all .45s. I will say that in general it is far, FAR easier to make a single stack 1911 feed 100 percent of the time if it's a .45 than a .40. Even by the standards of a Les Baer, I just don't believe in making things any harder on the pistolsmith than absolutely necessary.

Hope that helped.

Duane

[TnJ]

Hi Shawn

I like you am relatively new to to USPSA - I am currently shooting with a Les Baer Ultimate Master 45cal and am classified as a C shooter in limited 10 and single stack. First let me say the Les Baer it is a great gun and i love it - can you hear the but coming - however what you think you want now may not be what you will want to shoot in a year. Sounds funny - but are you sure you know what you like shooting ie limited, limited 10, single stack or for that matter open. If you want to shoot limited you can have a gun built for almost the same price as the semi custom Les. As much as I love my Les - If I had it to do over again I would have stuck it out with my 1911 Sig and then had a gun built.

On my Les I have made only two changes and am contemplating a third - 1. I put a thin fiber front sight (love it and it have really helped) 2. I put in a full length guide rod - again made a very nice difference. As you know the gun comes with a concealed carry "enlarged" magwell. I have been contemplating changing this as i need all the help i can get on reloads.

I am shooting and competing a lot more and exposed to other clubs and shooters - I find things that I want in my next gun and here in lies the main issue with buying a semi custom gun. You are spending the same or almost the same as a custom gun but not getting "everything" you want or will want. If money is not an issue then please disregard; however if it is continue shooting with your current gun while trying other club members and ask a lot of questions and read a lot of forums...Then look at the Les Baer again.

All this being said there is really no right answers here only experience specific to me and my shooting style - and as for shooters when you put three in a room you will get four opinions and ultimately they are worth exactly what you paid for them.

Good luck with your decision.

TnJ

[SA Friday]

I think it's awesome you are looking at crossing over to another shooting sport. Much of what you have learned previously will directly affect your shooting in USPSA. I suspect after some initial learning phase, you will accelerate through the classes.

Also, based on some of the things you have written so far, I would recommend going over the USPSA rules thoroughly and just getting out to some matches and watching and asking questions. I found these two things helped my start out immensely.

Since your location and firearms selection are fixed variables, seriously consider a different division to start in. The most important thing is the starting. The division you start in isn't as important. Single Stack and Lim-10 have differences in how the game is played when compared to Limited division, but the fundamentals of the sport are the same in every division.

I wouldn't worry about your history with other shooting sports affecting how you are seen by shooters in USPSA. I wouldn't worry about you already having a sponser affecting how you are viewed by shooters in USPSA either. The extremely few shooters in USPSA that would let these facts affect their perspective of you would not be worth spending time with anyway. Besides, quite a few of us get to shoot with the best of the best in our local areas regularly. It's one of the best aspects of USPSA, we get to shoot with our Tiger Woods' all the time.

[Flexmoney]

I would really like to avoid getting people who are going to tell me to get a different pistol from another maker, I already have a credit with Les and I really like his stuff.

Shawn, you made it pretty clear in your opening post that you wanted to stick with LB, for good reason. You don't own any apology here (some posters here might think of giving you an apology though).

I see in your signature line that you are in Cali...which throws a monkey wrench into the mix, due to some of the laws of the land.

That might not really matter, as LB's bread and butter pistol is the single-stack 1911. They make well fit guns that run well and shoot well. And, they look pretty good to most eyes. Getting something different from them would be like going to Morton's or Ruth Chris and getting something other than a steak. You'd still get a good meal...but it's a steak they are know for.

If you are a full-time Cali native then you may be looking at the 10 guns on his Cali-legal list? http://www.lesbaer.com/calif.html

Again, that is fine...since you likely are best off with a 5in gun with a bushing barrel and the normal 1911 (Government model) features.

The $1800 Premier II covers all the bases. It lacks a magwell, which you will desire for competition...no matter what division/sport you shoot.

The Ultimate Master is on the Cali list as well. It comes with a magwell (+ a serrated slide top?)...and a $2700 price tag. If LB is giving you the pick of the litter...that is the obvious choice (double check to ensure it fits in "the box"). But, if you have X amount of dollars on credit, then the PII and the extra $900 gets you lots of magwells and everything else.

One thing, you will want to know the true (not advertised) weight of the gun...with an empty magazine (the actual mags to be used).

If you shoot in USPSA's Limited-10 division...weight won't matter at all. If you shoot in USPSA's Single-stack division, then the gun and mag need to be 43oz or less. (In IDPA's Custom Defense Pistol (CDP) division, the weight w/mag is 41oz)

To summarize:

- 5in. "Government model"

- bushing barrel

- magwell

- you will want adjustable sights (as it appears you are likely a reloader and load developer)

To shoot in the USPSA Single-stack division or the IDPA CDP division, the gun will need to make weight and fit the respective "box".

Here are those rules (pulled from the rule books on the USPSA and IDPA websites).

IDPA CDP:

C. Have a maximum unloaded weight of 41 oz., including an

empty magazine.

D. Fit in the IDPA gun test box measuring 8 ¾” x 6” x 1 5/8”

with an empty magazine inserted.

USPSA Sinlge Stack:

- Yes, handgun with empty magazine inserted must fit wholly within a box with internal dimensions of 8 15/16” x6” x 1 5/8” (tolerance +1/16”, -0”) (8.938” x 6” x 1.625”) (227.01mm x 152.40mm x 41.28mm)

- Maximum weight Yes, 43 ounces with empty magazine

[Duane Thomas]

Checking my records, I see that according to the postal scale my sample Ultimate Master weighed 40.4 ounces with a shorty guide rod and solid plug. With a full-length guide rod, which I prefer, the gun weighed 41.4 ounces.

IOW, with a short guide rod it's legal for both USPSA and IDPA. With full-length guide rod it's legal for USPSA Single Stack (weight limit 43 ounces) but for IDPA Custom Defensive Pistol (weight limit 41 ounces) you need to be running the short, traditional-type guide rod to make weight. Bear in mind those weights are for a .45. A .40 will weigh slightly more due to the heavier barrel (less metal taken out of the barrel for a .40 caliber hole versus a .45 caliber hole, natch).

BTW, in stock form the Ultimate Master will easily fit in "the box" whether it's USPSA's or IDPA's. It is, after all, just a Government Model-sized 1911 with low profile adjustable sights and a shorty mag funnel.

[Chills1994]

^^^Which really doesn't matter Duane, because if Shawn gets a .40, in IDPA he will be stuck in the ESP division where the weight cut off is 43 ounces.

And IIRC, just coincidentally that is the same weight limit for the USPSA Single Stack division guns.

If he wanted to shoot IDPA's ESP division with the .40, he could also download his ammo to minor PF.

If Shawn reloads his own .223 ammo on some sort of progressive press now, like a Dillon, then yeah, I would highly recommend going with a .40 cal 1911. That way he doesn't have to switch back and forth between large and small primer systems on his press. Yeah, it takes a little while to swap them out and at times can be kinda aggravating...at best it is inconveinient. The other thing in these reloading component shortage times, he could probably get away with just stocking up on one primer size.

Anywhooo...we are probably throwing too many rules and quirks and nuiances at him now that it is probably just getting confusing.

[Duane Thomas]

Which really doesn't matter Duane, because if Shawn gets a .40, in IDPA he will be stuck in the ESP division where the weight cut off is 43 ounces.

And IIRC, just coincidentally that is the same weight limit for the USPSA Single Stack division guns.

Good point. I'd still go, myself, for a .45 over a .40, but like I said, that's me. Every shooter I have ever known who shoots a .40 single stack in USPSA has had to go through a long, protracted process of debugging the gun and ammo before the piece began to work at all reliably. Now, I'll be the first to admit that when that process was complete, if they stuck with it long enough, they wound up with some great guns. I just have very little tolerance for equipment that doesn't work, and would just as soon skip that process myself.

[G-ManBart]

holsters must be of a "carry" type placed behind the hip, and all magazine pouches must be carried behind the hips.

Point of clarification, the holster and mag pouches can be no farther forward than the point of the hip, which is quite far forward (mine is in the middle of the front pockets on normal jeans), not "behind" the hip". If it were truly behind the hip you'd only be able to get two or three mags on before they were at your spine

As an aside Shawn said he's a fan of .40 and was leaning that way for the new gun. I don't think Les would have any problem making a .40 run so that really shouldn't be an issue. R,

Edited September 7, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Duane Thomas]

Yeah, I thought about adding that clarification. In USPSA it's behind the point of the hip, i.e. the tip of the iliac crest; in IDPA the center of the pad of the trigger guard has to be behind the centerline of the body, generally though not always seen as the seam on the pants leg. But hey, my post was acquiring the length of a novel already.

[Chills1994]

Just to throw another wrench into the works... how are these Les Baer 1911 frames cut?

I mean will they take most readily available .22LR conversion kits?

Just to give Shawn something else to think about if he wants to practice cheaply.... or shoot steel plate matches cheaply.

[Duane Thomas]

I do know that the Les Baers use a National Match frame. That's why they're about two ounces heavier than many other GMs. Of course, even after posting the question here in the past, I have yet to get a definition of what exactly a "National Match frame" entails, in what areas, and how much dimensionally in those areas, it differs from a "non-National Match frame" to get those extra two ounces.

[midvalleyshooter]

Lots of choices

Let me offer a couple others:

1) Just get any Production legal 9mm pistol and try a couple of matches. You probably know someone who can loan you a Glock or a XD. Go real inexpensive before you spend your Les Baer money.

2) Buy a ready made USPSA ready pistol from a CA resident. Here are 2 examples:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=216504

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=215931

You also can't go wrong with the Les Baer 1911 you are asking about. I agree with Duane, get a .45.

Keith

[Nemo]

Hi Shawn,

You've received very good advice here and, as many have said, any Baer 1911 would make an excellent Limited-10 and/or Single Stack division pistola. Add magwell, rig, mags and ammo and you're good to go.

Now, limited division (you mentioned you're looking into it) is dominated by hi-capacity pistols. Given your relationship to the Baer shop, you could maybe get them to build you a sweet California-legal limited blaster. I don't know how Cali laws work but I see Barsto and Para in their list of approved handguns. Would Baer agree to work on one of those frames and build you a limited gun? Food for thought...

Welcome!

[Duane Thomas]

Even if Baer would build him a Limited gun, I don't see how, living in California, he'd get high cap mags for it. Also, over the years I have really come to question the wisdom of asking a pistolsmith to do something different than what I know he can do excellently. If a pistolsmith specializes in building really great .38 Super Open guns and you ask him to build you a Lightweight Commander .45, are you going to get a great gun? Probably not. If a pistolsmith specializes in building really great single stack 1911 .45s and you ask him to build you a double stack, Limited division appropriate .40, are you going to get a great gun? It's not outside the realm of possibility, but I wouldn't bet my money on it.

[Nemo]

I agree, Duane. Just wanted to provide Shawn another alternative, if it is one. He stated that he was looking into limited division, I didn't think about the mags, though. If Les Baer would get his Hi-cap 40 (Caspian) Cali-kosher, that would be Shawn's ticket. If not, Mr. Shawn welcome to the coolest division in USPSA. SINGLE STACK RULES!!

[VegasOPM]

Thanks for the offer, however I already spent the money and it is with Les Baer's shop, and he just needs to know what pistol to build for me, that is why I am asking which one would be the best for this style of shooting. Thanks for the offer though.

That might have been helpful to put in the first or second post, don't you think?

G-Man, he did say pretty much exactly that in his first post...