2009 NRA Action Pistol Committee Meeting

[Chuck Anderson]

For me, I'm looking at AP having fixed stages as a good thing. It allows a direct comparison of performance from event to event. If you shoot an 1850 at one match and an 1890 at another, something changed and if you isolate that change, you can improve. If you practiciing it also shows you're doing something right. It's a lot harder to determine this at a USPSA match. Besides, Steel Challenge has used the same stages for years and few people think that sport is boring. Oh, and BTW, I just shot my 5th GSSF match of the year on Sunday so what do I know.

[GlockerJeff]

I think you have to pick the area of the sport you are interested in and try to perfect it.

The GSSF matches award pistols on random drawings based on the attendance. The more who attend the more guns that are given away. I talked with one of the organizers about this and he stated that they used to use the Lewis Class system but they are trying random drawings to see how it works. They also give away cash, knives, and memberships at random.

The thing I personally like about GSSF and AP is that we know the course and can set up the same course at home for practice. I alternate GSSF courses and AP courses at home and shoot them with airsoft. I built a barricade and use paint can lids for plates. This way I can shoot a little dailey when I cannot go to the range. Some of us who like GSSF and AP have no interest in USPSA or IDPA for alot of reasons.

It would be great if the NRA could promote AP. Alot of guys that I try to bring into the sport have never heard of AP but see the Bianchi cup coverage on the Outdoor Channel. It also makes the NRA look like something other than a political organization.

[larry cazes]

For me, I'm looking at AP having fixed stages as a good thing. It allows a direct comparison of performance from event to event. If you shoot an 1850 at one match and an 1890 at another, something changed and if you isolate that change, you can improve. If you practiciing it also shows you're doing something right. It's a lot harder to determine this at a USPSA match. Besides, Steel Challenge has used the same stages for years and few people think that sport is boring. Oh, and BTW, I just shot my 5th GSSF match of the year on Sunday so what do I know.

Chuck, my question was not really intended to show good or bad but that the disciplines are very different and I believe this is possibly the core reason why AP doesnt get much interest out of the USPSA/IDPA crowd. The question of how to get more interest for AP out of those who are active USPSA folks has come up here for years.

Some of us who like GSSF and AP have no interest in USPSA or IDPA for alot of reasons.

Yup. I suspect that you are correct.

Edited September 1, 2009 by larry cazes

[BigDave]

Chuck, my question was not really intended to show good or bad but that the disciplines are very different and I believe this is possibly the core reason why AP doesnt get much interest out of the USPSA/IDPA crowd. The question of how to get more interest for AP out of those who are active USPSA folks has come up here for years.

My experience is that most of the AP naysayers are ones who've never tried it. The USPSA shooters who finally do try it end up returning for the next match.

The other key to success here is to get local schedualing down. If you put USPSA and AP matches on the same date, USPSA wins.

That's my experience locally.

[ohiopinblastersenior]

Tom,

Thanks for taking to time gather some input.

Suggestions for Action Pistol Bianchi Cup. In no specific order.

1. There is not enough AP shooters alone to support the sport. We must have crossovers, USPSA, PPC, Bullseye, Pin & Steel shooters....we need everybody for this sport to thrive. That said every time we allow for specialized equipment we narrow the field of people who can play the game.

2. Courses of Fire---Practical--Allow prone only at 50 not 25yd. Falling Plates---all shot standing no prone...for us older folks throwing ourselves on the ground isn't that much fun anymore. Barricade--No touching the barricade with gun or hands. Mover---I kind of like the mover but....the average person cannot set up the mover to practice it. This is 25% of the match. People will not come if they don't think they have a chance to be competative and not be able to practice it. It is also a log jam being slow to move people through, if you 2 days of bad weather your in trouble. Replace it with a Falling Steel course with 16 targets, shoot it 3 times for 48 targets or 480 points. You can score it fastest with most points or have a par time to shoot in or three different distances whatever or however you want to do it. This would move more people through, have some spectator appeal and elminate the scoring of paper targets. Finally add one rotating course of fire from the Action Pistol courses available with a different one every year, this would make 5 courses of fire increasing round count from the 192 rounds shot. Announce the courses every year in November that gives us 6 months to plot, plan and practice.

3. Open guns skip the trigger rules, Production keep it reasonable don't go to light...we are trying to get new people in to the sport.

4. If we still have low numbers consider letting shooters shoot any or all classes , open, metallic, production, maybe add a seperate revolver class. Most of us there all week...and we come to shoot.

It is really important that we try to grow this sport and that is going to require some changes.

Good Luck

Dave

[Action Pistolero]

Dave,

The no prone was tried in 2004. We finally got it all back but the 10 yard line in 2007. The no using the barricade was tried also. All it did was drive away some of our dedicated shooters and did not bring in any new shooters. The numbers at Bianchi dropped to 120, the lowest ever.

Contrast that to what we have now. 190 shooters with over 30 of them new shooters in 2009. The sport is growing. We don't need to step backwards. Tom and others have fought long and hard to get what we have now.

I'll agree with you on the trigger pull in Open. Will it happen? No. It's become a safety issue even we know otherwise.

Take the Mover out of the Cup? That's what makes it unique. There are ways to practice the mover without shooting it. I've done it. Unless there are thunderstorms in the area the mover runs. Many of us have had to shoot the mover and other courses of fire in the rain.

Change up the courses of fire? I agree with that one. Unfortuately I'm in the minority on that one. That will take time.

I know a few seniors over the age of 70 that are going prone. I also know of a few shooters that can't go prone but still manage to do well. Tom is working on a new class of Grand Seniors for those over 70. All I can say is adapt and overcome.

To get more shooters at Bianchi, A/P must grow at the club level first. We have been doing that. We just had the biggest Regional in the country this passed weekend. We had over 40 shooters firing 64 guns. The awards consisted of $550 in cash, 32 plaques and a prize table worth over $3000.

What's the next step? Move Bianchi a few weeks later in the year to get the Junior numbers up. Add Rimfire to Bianchi for all shooters. We had more Rimfire shooters at the regional than Metallic.

Kevin

[Allgoodhits]

Dave,

The no prone was tried in 2004. We finally got it all back but the 10 yard line in 2007. The no using the barricade was tried also. All it did was drive away some of our dedicated shooters and did not bring in any new shooters. The numbers at Bianchi dropped to 120, the lowest ever.

Contrast that to what we have now. 190 shooters with over 30 of them new shooters in 2009. The sport is growing. We don't need to step backwards. Tom and others have fought long and hard to get what we have now.

I'll agree with you on the trigger pull in Open. Will it happen? No. It's become a safety issue even we know otherwise.

Take the Mover out of the Cup? That's what makes it unique. There are ways to practice the mover without shooting it. I've done it. Unless there are thunderstorms in the area the mover runs. Many of us have had to shoot the mover and other courses of fire in the rain.

Change up the courses of fire? I agree with that one. Unfortuately I'm in the minority on that one. That will take time.

I know a few seniors over the age of 70 that are going prone. I also know of a few shooters that can't go prone but still manage to do well. Tom is working on a new class of Grand Seniors for those over 70. All I can say is adapt and overcome.

To get more shooters at Bianchi, A/P must grow at the club level first. We have been doing that. We just had the biggest Regional in the country this passed weekend. We had over 40 shooters firing 64 guns. The awards consisted of $550 in cash, 32 plaques and a prize table worth over $3000.

What's the next step? Move Bianchi a few weeks later in the year to get the Junior numbers up. Add Rimfire to Bianchi for all shooters. We had more Rimfire shooters at the regional than Metallic.

Kevin

+1

[oldtrooper]

Dave,

The no prone was tried in 2004. We finally got it all back but the 10 yard line in 2007. The no using the barricade was tried also. All it did was drive away some of our dedicated shooters and did not bring in any new shooters. The numbers at Bianchi dropped to 120, the lowest ever.

Contrast that to what we have now. 190 shooters with over 30 of them new shooters in 2009. The sport is growing. We don't need to step backwards. Tom and others have fought long and hard to get what we have now.

I'll agree with you on the trigger pull in Open. Will it happen? No. It's become a safety issue even we know otherwise.

Take the Mover out of the Cup? That's what makes it unique. There are ways to practice the mover without shooting it. I've done it. Unless there are thunderstorms in the area the mover runs. Many of us have had to shoot the mover and other courses of fire in the rain.

Change up the courses of fire? I agree with that one. Unfortuately I'm in the minority on that one. That will take time.

I know a few seniors over the age of 70 that are going prone. I also know of a few shooters that can't go prone but still manage to do well. Tom is working on a new class of Grand Seniors for those over 70. All I can say is adapt and overcome.

To get more shooters at Bianchi, A/P must grow at the club level first. We have been doing that. We just had the biggest Regional in the country this passed weekend. We had over 40 shooters firing 64 guns. The awards consisted of $550 in cash, 32 plaques and a prize table worth over $3000.

What's the next step? Move Bianchi a few weeks later in the year to get the Junior numbers up. Add Rimfire to Bianchi for all shooters. We had more Rimfire shooters at the regional than Metallic.

Kevin

+1+1

[ffl]

I think one of the things to promote younger shooter to AP is to start College AP Clubs. I am trying to start this at MissFFL's College (Missouri State University). They have an indoor range on campus. The only problem we have is getting a Faculty Adviser and they don't want personal firearms on campus. However the firearms problem could be solved by using 22's instead of center fire because of cost. An open 22 could be set up for less than 500 dollars compared to several thousand for a 38super.

Maybe the NRA could merge or coordinate AP to Tori's Collegiate programs.

What do you think Tom.

dcs

[NRAActionPistol]

I think one of the things to promote younger shooter to AP is to start College AP Clubs. I am trying to start this at MissFFL's College (Missouri State University). They have an indoor range on campus. The only problem we have is getting a Faculty Adviser and they don't want personal firearms on campus. However the firearms problem could be solved by using 22's instead of center fire because of cost. An open 22 could be set up for less than 500 dollars compared to several thousand for a 38super.

Maybe the NRA could merge or coordinate AP to Tori's Collegiate programs.

What do you think Tom.

dcs

I Love this idea, it would need to be promoted from Collegiate & Schools, I know they have tried to get this going with little or no result. We actually were just talking about a Junior specifc Sectional, but we do not have the numbers to justify it! Build it at your level, we will support it!

Tom...

[ohiopinblastersenior]

Points taken guys, but there are thousands of USPSA open shooters who have open guns who could come shoot the match. How many of them are going to have the scope mounts that they can jam against the barricade and hold the gun against it. Not too many. Specialized equipment hurts when you try to attract new shooters.

Without the mover the same shooters would not have to worry about stick shift mounts or different scopes and could use what they have.

Attendance in 2008 was 151, 2006 was 142, 2005 was 159 , not sure what this years was I haven't got my match book yet but I think Mr. Hughes and others did a good recruiting job to get more shooters plus it was the 30th Annv. Match. 2010 could be a tough year to duplicate the numbers of 2009 with the layoffs and job loses around the country. I like the idea of moving the match back a couple weeks in to June. There are lots of graduations High School and College at the end of May that can cause conflicts for people.

The High School Trap shooting programs are out there. There is one in the county where I live. It is supported by local clubs. Action Pistol Clubs are a lot harder to find. I alway thought the Colleges with Rifle Teams would be a good place to start.

Just some Ideas

Thanks Guys

Dave

[Action Pistolero]

Points taken guys, but there are thousands of USPSA open shooters who have open guns who could come shoot the match. How many of them are going to have the scope mounts that they can jam against the barricade and hold the gun against it. Not too many. Specialized equipment hurts when you try to attract new shooters.

Dave,

Once again, been there done that. It was called Open Modified.

The trigger pull and grip safety rules do quite a bit to discourage shooters from USPSA. Production, on the other hand, is the place for them. Granted, it's not Open but it's a start.

Kevin

[M118LR]

Change up the courses of fire? I agree with that one. Unfortuately I'm in the minority on that one. That will take time.

Why not bring back the International Rapid Fire event. The years they used this course of fire there were no perfect scores. I also like the idea of leaving prone in and letting people use the barricade for support.

[Chuck Anderson]

If you move the match to June you're going to run into a month chock full of other matches. ICORE, Area Matches, MGM Ironman and a slew of others. Won't be a problem for the hardcore Cup shooters but it's gonna lower the number of any potential crossover shooters.

[Allgoodhits]

Change up the courses of fire? I agree with that one. Unfortuately I'm in the minority on that one. That will take time.

Why not bring back the International Rapid Fire event. The years they used this course of fire there were no perfect scores. I also like the idea of leaving prone in and letting people use the barricade for support.

International Rapid Fire is a hoot if I am thinking about the correct match. The three target array would require some turning target frame mods, then difficult to go back to the two target array, at least at BC. Other than that it is a terrific event.

We just completed the VA State Championships, and there, Kevin, had the Advanced Military Event. It was fun, but became a bigger bottle neck than the Mover. Some some thought needs to go into making event decisions based on the time it takes to get shooters through.

On a different note, regarding some of the rules and equipment stuff others have mentioned. Many participants shoot compromised gear to one degree or another. One doesn't have to go prone, one doesn't have to use the barricade for support, one doesn't have to have a mover base. Andy Rayland and others shoot the whole match standing and does well. Many of the better scores on the barricade with metallic/production guns are fired without touching the barricade at all, and last year Greg Davis cleaned the Mover with a Metallic gun holding lead, and Tony Holmes holds lead on the Mover and cleans it more often than not. I would encourage those whom have never been, bring what you have that fits within the rules, and shoot the match. One will likely find that the cause of the miss, the 5, and maybe the 8, was not gear related....

MJ

[kimmbeckwith]

If you move the match to June you're going to run into a month chock full of other matches. ICORE, Area Matches, MGM Ironman and a slew of others. Won't be a problem for the hardcore Cup shooters but it's gonna lower the number of any potential crossover shooters.

Chuck: One of the best ways to grow this match is to get Junior shooters involved. The time frame we are dealing with now run into finals, ballgame chapionships that time of year. We have to concentrate on the younger shooters, THEY ARE OUR FUTURE.

(and by the way, I have no children in that age bracket, I THINK!)

Kim M. Beckwith

[Allgoodhits]

I think one of the things to promote younger shooter to AP is to start College AP Clubs. I am trying to start this at MissFFL's College (Missouri State University). They have an indoor range on campus. The only problem we have is getting a Faculty Adviser and they don't want personal firearms on campus. However the firearms problem could be solved by using 22's instead of center fire because of cost. An open 22 could be set up for less than 500 dollars compared to several thousand for a 38super.

Maybe the NRA could merge or coordinate AP to Tori's Collegiate programs.

What do you think Tom.

dcs

I Love this idea, it would need to be promoted from Collegiate & Schools, I know they have tried to get this going with little or no result. We actually were just talking about a Junior specifc Sectional, but we do not have the numbers to justify it! Build it at your level, we will support it!

Tom...

Tom,

Would NRA GRANT money be a possibility for these programs? If not maybe GRANT Jeavons money!

MJ

[Allgoodhits]

Regarding the trigger pull weight and the grip safety. Max Michel and others could dispell much of that hinderance if you observed their runs on the Speed event on Saturday. Regarding the prone.....it's free style, one can stand up, sit down, kneel or squat if they like, one or two handed, weak or strong.

Not sure but I think Kevin, Travis and some others are shooting better with the 2.5 lb triggers than they were with the 1 pounders. The super light trigger make it too easy to trigger dot, instead of dot trigger.

MJ

[NRAActionPistol]

Tom,

Would NRA GRANT money be a possibility for these programs? If not maybe GRANT Jeavons money!

MJ

MJ,

This is really not my Gig, but I do know that the NRA has Grant Money to give out to a NRA Club or Association that will use it to grow a shooting sport and every year money is avaialable and never applied for.

With the increased interest in NRA Action Shooting, this is a PERFECT time for a Club or Association to get funds to help US grow the sport.

As you very well know, there is only so much that you & I can do!

Thanks,

Tom...

[NRAActionPistol]

Not sure but I think Kevin, Travis and some others are shooting better with the 2.5 lb triggers than they were with the 1 pounders. The super light trigger make it too easy to trigger dot, instead of dot trigger.

MJ

Ditto...The shooter should control the firearm, I think its called Marksmanship!

[Chuck Anderson]

If you move the match to June you're going to run into a month chock full of other matches. ICORE, Area Matches, MGM Ironman and a slew of others. Won't be a problem for the hardcore Cup shooters but it's gonna lower the number of any potential crossover shooters.

Chuck: One of the best ways to grow this match is to get Junior shooters involved. The time frame we are dealing with now run into finals, ballgame chapionships that time of year. We have to concentrate on the younger shooters, THEY ARE OUR FUTURE.

(and by the way, I have no children in that age bracket, I THINK!)

Kim M. Beckwith

I'm well aware of the school year and the problems it creates with match scheduling. The USPSA National Junior Coordinator is about an hour from my house and in my USPSA Section. We have one of the most active Junior groups for USPSA in the country. I'm also starting a Scholasitc Steel Challenge group at my local club. I totally agree that Juniors are the future. However, you also have to realize that if you take an existing match and move it to conflict with other matches that are heavily attended by people you're trying to get to crossover, you're going to miss out on a lot of potential competitors.

I'm not saying don't do it. You just have to weigh the potential new juniors against the potential new crossover competitors and decide. which will be of more benefit to AP. I know if the BC happens any time between June and August I won't be there. Just too much going on with other shootnig sports.

[mpolans]

Regarding the trigger pull weight and the grip safety. Max Michel and others could dispell much of that hinderance if you observed their runs on the Speed event on Saturday. Regarding the prone.....it's free style, one can stand up, sit down, kneel or squat if they like, one or two handed, weak or strong.

Not sure but I think Kevin, Travis and some others are shooting better with the 2.5 lb triggers than they were with the 1 pounders. The super light trigger make it too easy to trigger dot, instead of dot trigger.

MJ

That maybe true, but Max Michel and other pros either get free guns and/or can afford to have a dedicated Bianchi gun with a "heavy" trigger. Most USPSA, IPSC, or IDPA would-be crossover shooters aren't going to want to go out of their way to increase the weight of their triggers or buy a new gun just to try Bianchi.

,

It appears the New Zealanders have already come to the inevitable conclusion that NRA chooses to ignore and are basing their Production gun rules on IPSC Production Division rules.

[NRAActionPistol]

That maybe true, but Max Michel and other pros either get free guns and/or can afford to have a dedicated Bianchi gun with a "heavy" trigger. Most USPSA, IPSC, or IDPA would-be crossover shooters aren't going to want to go out of their way to increase the weight of their triggers or buy a new gun just to try Bianchi.

,

It appears the New Zealanders have already come to the inevitable conclusion that NRA chooses to ignore and are basing their Production gun rules on IPSC Production Division rules.

If anyone thinks that a 2 lb trigger is "heavy" we just can't see that, I personally shot PPC and Conventional Pistol for years with a heavier trigger then that! We realize it's not the same, but it's the rule as it is, and no one appears to like rule changes, or rules at all.

The Production Rules are designed and ratified with the help and consideration from USPSA, IPSC & IDPA shooters and staff members! We actually will have a non-competing member of the USPSA BOD at the NRA Bianchi Cup in 2010.

Try it once, if you like it please come back, if you don't like that is fine too, we just want to give our members an opportunity to compete in the shooting sports, and make it as fair as possible. That's it, the bottom line, and that will not change.

[Chuck Anderson]

I think the point he was trying to make is that, whether it is heavy or not it is different. A shooter is much more likely to crossover if the equipment he's already using will still be legal. Won't be ideal, but at least they can try the sport out and see if they like it before sending Nowlin a huge chunk of money for a AP pistol. I have a bunch of guns now that would be legal for Metallic or Open, but they all have 1 1/2 - 2 lb triggers in them. I'm not about to go tweaking my guns just to shoot one match a month or less. I probably would just shoot Production with my 34 if I hadn't won an STI that I'm going to set up for Metallic.

You're right that no one likes rule changes. But, lots of folks also don't seem to like the 2lb limit, both current shooters and people considering shooting AP. The NRA has made a ton of progress in the last 10 years or so with opening their minds, both in competition and LE training. I'd hate to see any regression of that. I just have a hard time with the logic of a 2 lb trigger being safe but a 1 1/2 pound trigger not. Sorry, but I get my back up when someone tries to legislate safety on me. If someone is going to AD, they're going to do it with a 2lb trigger or a 5lb trigger.

[shooter1911]

When the rule changed happened about the 2 lb. trigger I was dead against it. I struggled for a while I was jerking the trigger and everything, But now I can not see going back to the 1 lb. trigger for the BC. The trigger pull has made me a better shooter. It makes me focus more while shooting.

We had a Steel Challenge match at our local club, and I was going to use my steel gun which has a 1 lb. trigger and the grip safety is pinned. I ended up pulling my cup gun out and shooting with it, because on my svi I was getting on the trigger way to quick.

Also if you shoot anything enough you will get use to it. The NRA needs to leave it one way or the other.

Travis