John Dunn Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 This post was inspired by another forum members post stating he would never have a flu shot or anything like it, and opposing forced vaccination by the military. Lots of people feel the same, and I'm sure they have their reasons, but let me rant a little, this one touches a nerve. I see all kinds of disease on a daily basis. I've never seen a case of: Rabies Tetanus Diptheria Small Pox Active Polio Mumps I have seen measles, rubella, AIDS, hepatitis, varicella, west nile and a crap load of other viral diseases. I think that people who oppose vaccination because of the remote chance of serious side effects, do so out of profound ignorance of what life would be like without vaccines. There were millions of people killed by influenza during WW I, who would probably have been immensely grateful for a flu shot, so disdained by some. The very fact that folks who oppose vaccination are alive is owed to the Herculean efforts of countless scientists, doctors and nurses, volunteers and governments who were blessed with the intelligence to recognize a miracle when they saw it. If people are going to bad mouth vaccines, why not antibiotics, anesthesia, or all the other landmark advances in medicine? Bottom line, everyone has a right to their opinion. My opinion is you should get your shots... and say THANK YOU when you get them. (Sorry for the harshness TIS, but I wanted to present an opposing viewpoint to yours in case impressionable people were reading, please do not take this as diatribe against you personally) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiG Lady Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 With a newly-implanted prosthetic joint I have to be very careful of deliberately introducing potentially infectious foreign stuff into my system. I can't even have routine medical or dental work done without preventive medication beforehand because of this. I doubt the pharmaceutical company that produced the vaccine would be willing to foot the cost of replacing the hip or covering my funeral arrangements if the stuff caused my physical integrity to go south. I don't get what you'd call "seriously ill" with flus and colds much any more anyway. I've never had a flu shot. I'm not in a position to start now. I've never had the measles, either. I did submit to polio vaccination years ago, however. But I hear they work for SOME people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Geez man...you're opposed to job security? Kidding... The opposition to vaccines seems to be part of a bigger issue: Innumeracy. Basic logic and rational risk assessment are basically dead anymore. Modern risk assessment for the layperson is based on what media story is most ghastly and most alarming, not based on a rational evaluation of probabilities or actuarial data. In the layperson's defense, the media either does not comprehend the data, is too lazy to obtain it, or deliberately withholds the data lest their drivel lose credibility. My personal favorite exercise in innumeracy was the public outcry over incinerating chemical weapons at the Umatilla Army Depot. The problem was not that chemical weapons might leak sometime in the future. They are leaking right now. Doing nothing guaranteed the 100% probability of a catastrophic accident. Yet the majority of the public wanted to stop the incinerator on the basis that there was a very small, but non-zero risk that the incinerator *might* leak toxic nerve gas. (Fortunately, OR governor Kitzhaber stepped in and allowed the incinerator to operate.) Which begs the question: What damned math class in the public educational system is teaching that 1/100,000 is greater than 1/1 or 1/100? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 John Don't worry about it, I take no offense at all. Let me try and clarify a bit. It's not like I want the flu, or any various other viruses that immunization the protect us against. The thing the worries me is that you have no way of knowing exactly what is being put in you when you are immunized. So without drawing this out into a long debate where thing eventually get out of hand, let's just leave it at this: I disagree with it and would not do it, if you or anyone else does, I have no problem with that. As you said, we are all entitled to our opinion. All I say is just be aware of the possible repercutions no matter which course you choose to take. Fair enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 What damned math class in the public educational system is teaching that 1/100,000 is greater than 1/1 or 1/100? Are you serious? What's this in reference to? Can I trade them my 1/100,000 of 10 dollars for their 1/1 of 10 dollars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AikiDale Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 John, When I was born there were 2.5 billion people living on this planet. Now there are an additional 4 billion. Over population is a major problem. Perhaps it is just uncaring and selfish of me, but I have no problem with people not taking their shots, not wearing their seatbelts, not wearing their helmets ..... And I certainly do not want to see a law which coerces them to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 As a matter of fact, the state can require you to be either immunized or imprisoned if they "suspect" serious viral infection. And BTW, every person on the planet can fit in Texas with room to spare...I'm not too worried about over-population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted November 7, 2003 Author Share Posted November 7, 2003 Perhaps it is just uncaring and selfish of me You said it! Seriously, being anti-disease is not being pro-overpopulation. A certain latex product comes to mind as an example. Don't worry about it, I take no offense at all. Thanks, hard to disagree with someone without sounding insulting on the internet, much easier in person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 Guys, I am sorry I started the poo flying on this one. The flu vaccination makes me sick every year. Every year I get the flu anyway. Maybe it keeps the severity in check. That is my only objection to the flu vaccination. The military does a pretty good job making sure I have the proper vaccinations to keep me from getting really sick when I deploy. For that, I am grateful. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 The flu vaccination makes me sick every year. Every year I get the flu anyway. Maybe it keeps the severity in check. That is my only objection to the flu vaccination. The military does a pretty good job making sure I have the proper vaccinations to keep me from getting really sick when I deploy. For that, I am grateful. Sounds like you might be allergic to something in it, or your body doesn't like some other body's antibodies on its turf! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Orr Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 John. Brings to mind the US Militaries deliberate "testing" of a large # of black servicemen's reaction to untreated syphilis back around the "big war." Without consent or knowledge on their part. By the way - I do and will take some immunizations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Anderson Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 You want immunity? Work retail. Every day is a vaccine. the only thing I can get is Bronchitis/sinusitis. Haven't had a cold in decades... SA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liota Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 The flu vaccination makes me sick every year. Every year I get the flu anyway. Maybe it keeps the severity in check. That is my only objection to the flu vaccination. The military does a pretty good job making sure I have the proper vaccinations to keep me from getting really sick when I deploy. For that, I am grateful. Sounds like you might be allergic to something in it, or your body doesn't like some other body's antibodies on its turf! Rhino, I might be, but the military makes me take it anyway. Hopefully, this year it will come and go earlier than last year. Last year it got me in February and didn't let go until April. That sucked. I shot the first major match of the year so sick I couldn't stand up. To top it all off, I dq'd at the match on the next to last stage. What a bummer that was! I drove to my parents' house in tears. It sucked. Liota Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted November 7, 2003 Share Posted November 7, 2003 I for one AM opposed to getting a variety of vacinations because I think as a culture we definately OVERMEDICATE. Every time that little johny gets sick with anything his mom takes him and gets antibiotics instead of letting his imune system grow and become stronger. I got into this discussion the other day with my brother and his wife who are both doctors. My parents took us to the doctor, although not that often they still took us for minor things. My sister in laws parents only took here when the cases were more serious. Now she never gets sick nw because her imune system is so strong. It is like all the studies that show that kids who had dogs when they were younger have better imune systems since the dogs introduced all kinds of weird bacteria and such to the kids. I think the human body is amazing in its ability to heal. All the antibiotics, antibiotic soaps excetera are just going to lead to super germs that cant be killed. I mean how many doctors have ever seen a case of any of the diseases that we get vacinated for. Some are necessary while some are just our national theme of medicate for everything. My real reason for ranting about this is really more aimed at pet vacinations. I live in texas which requires(just chaged actually) that you dog get a rabies shot every year eventhough ALL proof shows that the shots are good for at least 3-7 years. The downside of the shots, a 6% chance of them causing various types of cancer. Rant over Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 [torque everyone off mode ON] I was thinking about this thread on the way home tonight. I think people don't appreciate vaccines because they've never witnessed the horrors of polio or measles or smallpox. Thank God I've only had to read about it or witness it on film. One hundred short years ago, parents could reasonably expect that one or more of their children would either not live to adulthood or be maimed by what now is an entirely preventable disease. Vaccines are nothing short of a miracle in how they've improved our lives. Do any of you expect your healthy child to die before they turn 18? I doubt it. The fact is, damn few people who actually lived through the "good old days" yearn to go back. I think we've forgotten how fortunate we are, and the reasons why it's so: modern medicine, modern chemistry, modern physics. A stunning revolution happened within our grandparents' lifetimes. I also think it's one's civic duty to be vaccinated against disease, just like it's one's civic duty to vote, and go to war when called. The things we must do to maintain a functional, productive society aren't always pleasant, but are necessary. BTW, the use of vaccines is not comparable to the overuse of antibiotics. It's a different phenomena. A vaccine is not a "medication" as much as a preventitve measure. Proper vaccination should NOT be equated to being a pill-popping hypochondriac who begs Dr. Feelgood for his next fix. When I have kids, they're going to get every damned vaccine I can get them, and they'll be better off for it. I know it. History provides clear evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 Nevermind, not important. I say we drop this before it gets out of hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dunn Posted November 8, 2003 Author Share Posted November 8, 2003 Jeeper, I find your reply somewhat confusing. On one hand you seem to favor exposing kids to a variety of "weird bacteria" by exposing kids to dogs, yet you oppose building the immune system through vaccination. Had to scratch my head on that one. EricW, You said everything I wanted to, but more eloquently. Just curious, does anyone oppose Vitamin C because they think scurvy builds character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 John: Chill dude or I'll bite you on the leg and you will have to go through a rabies series. On a more serious note, I went through the Hep B series as an emergency worker long ago and since that time I have had patient contact with two known cases of Hep B. Both times I was performing automobile extrication with all of that sharp metal and busted glass... I got a routine Tetanus booster many years ago, just months before I suffered a punture wound on a Canadian fly-in. Man was I thankful. When the free booster became available last month I was the first in line. We had a health fair here a couple of weeks ago. Oh boy, flu shots and the boss picked up the bill. I got the shot from the cutest nurse... I have had the flu, the real thing not some pansy "stomach flu" that folks mistake for the honest to gosh flu. I think preventative measures should be a priority for everyone. Still, folks do have the right to free choice. Too bad the freedom of choice can often times have such a tremendous cost associated with it. For instance, if every senior citizen in this country decided to skip the flu shot for the next five years, can you imagine what the added cost of health care would be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeeper Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 John, I was more talking about the current overuse of medicine in general than specifically vacinations. I believe in vacinations to the point that it would be reality to ever actually get the disease. Everything has a risk factor when taken. I dont currently take mylaria pills since i doubt I will ever get it. I just think that there are a lot of diseases that are basically wiped out in the US and I dont see the benefit if there is a acertainable risk factor to taking the vacine itself. Of course the risk factor on most vacines is so low that this isnt a problem. What my rant really revolved around is my dogs and the fact that 70% of dogs vacinated have some reaction to vacines. Texas changed the law for rabies to every 3 years(which is what 45 other states have) but the city I live in has kept the moronic 1 year requirement. I am petitioning the city council soon. I guess my incoherent rambling is from anger over that mostly. Too often everyone is content with just medicating for everything. It is just like the search for the super diet pill so that you can eat big macs and drink soda 6 times a day. The pill exists, it is made by nike and it comes in the shape of a jogging shoe. Holy crap that was a rambilng bunch of nonsense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 if every senior citizen in this country decided to skip the flu shot for the next five years, can you imagine what the added cost of health care would be? Hey, as long as you refuse to answer 911 calls in response to problems with senior citizens and keep the ovens going, I don't see an issue. Should be a LOT cheaper. Yes, I'm well aware that I'm going to hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 ...now that I quit laughing. Jake is right this is going to get out of hand. Anyone have a good stout chain and a lock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 8, 2003 Share Posted November 8, 2003 OK...two request to lock this thread (I already moved it from the "hate" section because it was heading away from the "hate" section rules). I'll lock it for now. If I get enough request, I might open it back up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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