New shooter attendance enigma

[GrumpyOne]

There is a dogma going around that IDPA is somehow more beginner friendly, and that USPSA takes a "ton of equipment and an expensive gun" to compete it. Obviously this argument falls flat with the addition of the production and single stack classes, but facts have never been a cure for ignorance.

IDPA also has the "defensive training" draw, bringing in shooters who don't necessarily care about competing, but want to get better with their personal defense gun, and believe IDPA more suited to that purpose.

+1 The draw of IDPA to new shooters is that have bought their weapon for self defense, but don't know how to use it in that type of situation, so they do IDPA to get a better understanding of what it's all about. The goal of IDPA is to survive the encounter by taking out the bad guy, not shoot him as fast as you can. Once they feel they have gotten the hang of it, trained so to speak, they feel no need to keep training, so they don't come back. I would bet that the ones who show up every week or month for the IDPA match will eventually join in a=on the dark side, in USPSA. By the way, the new owners are the reason for the ammo shortage, not in a bad way, but because there are literally millions of new guns being bought since the presidential election, and they want to know how to shoot them. Give it 2 years and the ranks of the USPSA and IDPA will swell dramatically.

[GrumpyOne]

There is a dogma going around that IDPA is somehow more beginner friendly, and that USPSA takes a "ton of equipment and an expensive gun" to compete it. Obviously this argument falls flat with the addition of the production and single stack classes, but facts have never been a cure for ignorance.

I think you are right, Rob. I certainly had the impression that IDPA was beginner friendly and "IPSC" was for "race guns." I suppose I got that idea from the gun rags and maybe some internet chatter.

IDPA probably is more beginner friendly, with low round count stages and less-demanding stages. I started in IDPA, but after shooting a 36-round field course at my first USPSA match, I was hooked and haven't shot an IDPA match since.

IDPA also has the "defensive training" draw, bringing in shooters who don't necessarily care about competing, but want to get better with their personal defense gun, and believe IDPA more suited to that purpose.

You're right, again. The defensive angle is a big draw to the guys I used to shoot with.

I'm not up on the history and timeline of USPSA's various divisions but I wonder if IDPA would have taken off like it did had USPSA had a single stack and production from the beginning.

IDPA is kinda like riding in a fast Mustang; Some will get a thrill from it, others will say it's fast enough, while others will get that "taste for speed" and want a ride in a Ferrari at top speed. USPSA is the Ferrari. While not looking down at IDPA, some people just don't have the need for speed, but would rather ride in comfort.

[GrumpyOne]

Hopefully my answer will count for something, as I'm (almost) one of the new shooters you described.

I'm 29. Started shooting competitively 2 years ago, when I attended my first indoor IDPA match.

I had been carrying a gun since I was 21, and realized I still wasn't confident in my ability to wield it effectively under stress. I looked at both comps, and chose IDPA first for the same reason most probably do:

Most shooters own a gun with 2-3 mags. Needing 4-6 for production alone is an issue. Not to mention that most have ZERO mag carriers.

IDPA appears simpler. Mainly because nearly everyone shoots every COF the same way

Round count is lower

NO ONE has an Open gun. While ESP pistols can closely resemble a Limited gun, the vest and traditional holster 'hide' the race image. Mag location/count/capacity helps dispel the 'race' image as well. When you go to an IDPA match, the Glock and 1911 are 80% or more of the field. They look like practical every-day-carry guns to untrained shooters. Your average USPSA match has at most 1/3 of the shooters with Production gear. The rest of the shooters have odd-looking things no one would carry.

I can't really emphasize how most people interested in learning to really utilize their defensive gun view Open guns (and the holster and mag carriers) as totally irrelevant to their interests. Kinda like a 16 year-old learning to drive would view a full-blown top-fuel dragster. Neat, but totally impractical.

You have to suck them in over time, as the 'gaming fever' grows within them. Out of all the new shooters I've seen go through our ranks at the local IDPA matches (I pretty much run our Tuesday indoor league now) ... very few of them have much interest in shooting outdoors, much less in trying out the "sport only" game that is USPSA. The abilities learned in USPSA translate very well to real-life defensive shooting skill.. But all they probably see are the 'ridiculous' gear on your belt, the space gun, and the day-glow uniforms on shooters running around shooting at those bubble-gum intensive stages.

95% of the people who shoot an IDPA match are baffled when they watch one of us game the hell out of something to win the stage. They're there to learn defensive skills and train with their gun. It's a curiosity to many of them that most of the regulars treat IDPA like a sport, rather than a chance to do some 'training' without the high-dollar price tag of a defensive shooting school. Getting them to stop in the middle of an opening an engage four targets without being anywhere near cover might just induce a seizure in this type of person.

I decided to make Master in IDPA, then transition over to Production. It's been incredibly fun, but I still shoot 6 IPDA matches for every USPSA match I attend. I really like both sports pretty much equally. IDPA because I'm pretty good at it, USPSA because it shows me how much I still have to learn.

Awesome freaking post! Nailed it!

[GrumpyOne]

One aspect not discussed thus far is the personality types common to both sports. New shooters who actually make it to USPSA matches and come back are aggressive, competitive, A-types, and are really interested in doing this, and doing it better and faster. The IDPA matches tend to have the quieter, more reserved, almost shy shooters who want to move a little slower toward the confidence they seek in pistol craft. Now there are exceptions to both sports, but after many years of shooting both, I really see it this way. When we started shooting a monthly steel match at our club, we saw something I almost couldn't believe: USPSA shooters, IDPA shooters, and new shooters from all different backgrounds came out and shot everything from antique .22s to full custom open race guns. No one seems to be overwhelmed, and no one seems to discuss which way is more realistic, and no one gets called gamer. Just my observations.

They all came out cause steel is 100 times more fun to shoot than paper or cardboard! Steel is what got me started shooting competitively.

[ima45dv8]

What's with that name, "GrumpyOne"?

You don't seem so grumpy to me...

[rockhartz]

When I started not so long ago I didn't know the difference between the COFs, the different divisions, or for that matter how many magazines I would even need. I showed up at an IDPA match largely because I was told that it was "more like what you would do on the street" as opposed to USPSA which was "pistol competition". As someone not entirely confident yet in my shooting skills and not knowing anything at all about either sport I went for IDPA first as it seemed most like what I already (thought) I knew. After a very short time I realized my personal choice is USPSA but I did go to IDPA first.

My suggestion for clubs to recruit new shooters is to have loaner holsters (right and left hand please) mags and mag pouches for your primary shooting platforms. Glock, XD, M&P and 1911. Put ads up at the local gun stores/ranges and advertise that shooters can get a chance to have fun trying out this sport with the loaner stuff if needed. Have someone who is a great ambassador for the sport mentor them through the match and make sure you squad them with other beginners or C - D shooters. While it might be cool to see a GM Open shooter burn a stage down if everyone the newbie is shooting with is too much better than they are the newbie won't feel like he belongs just because of the huge difference in skill sets. Imagine how you would feel if you attempted to learn to play piano when everyone in the class had already composed their own piano sonata.

Just my .02

I attended my first USPSA match last week. Did not have holster or mag carrier and wanted to just watch and learn what it was all about. What fun I would have had if only they had a loaner holster and mag carriers. All shooters were very friendly and supportive in terms of encouraging me to ask questions, etc. I learned what holsters were acceptable and how many mag holders I would need for my desire to shoot production. Based upon the friendliness of everyone at the match, I for sure will come back and participate on a regular basis. I have ordered proper equipment and look forward to my first shoot in the coming weeks.

I must say that I have a long way to go regarding competing with others---I think the first year will be just figuring out what my capabilities are in an effort to define my own personal goals on how to get quicker and more accurate. I watched some pretty amazing shooters -- and must say was very intimidating. Not so much though that would prevent me from coming back to give it a try.

[ima45dv8]

I watched some pretty amazing shooters -- and must say was very intimidating. Not so much though that would prevent me from coming back to give it a try.

Cool!

And welcome to The forums!

[GrumpyOne]

What's with that name, "GrumpyOne"?

You don't seem so grumpy to me...

My wife says I can go from being Mr. Nice to Mr. Grumpy faster than a top fuel dragster down an 1/8 mile track. Read Relictraders post about IPSC and you should get an idea, or just look at the quote on my signature, or my personal statement!

[GrumpyOne]

When I started not so long ago I didn't know the difference between the COFs, the different divisions, or for that matter how many magazines I would even need. I showed up at an IDPA match largely because I was told that it was "more like what you would do on the street" as opposed to USPSA which was "pistol competition". As someone not entirely confident yet in my shooting skills and not knowing anything at all about either sport I went for IDPA first as it seemed most like what I already (thought) I knew. After a very short time I realized my personal choice is USPSA but I did go to IDPA first.

My suggestion for clubs to recruit new shooters is to have loaner holsters (right and left hand please) mags and mag pouches for your primary shooting platforms. Glock, XD, M&P and 1911. Put ads up at the local gun stores/ranges and advertise that shooters can get a chance to have fun trying out this sport with the loaner stuff if needed. Have someone who is a great ambassador for the sport mentor them through the match and make sure you squad them with other beginners or C - D shooters. While it might be cool to see a GM Open shooter burn a stage down if everyone the newbie is shooting with is too much better than they are the newbie won't feel like he belongs just because of the huge difference in skill sets. Imagine how you would feel if you attempted to learn to play piano when everyone in the class had already composed their own piano sonata.

Just my .02

I attended my first USPSA match last week. Did not have holster or mag carrier and wanted to just watch and learn what it was all about. What fun I would have had if only they had a loaner holster and mag carriers. All shooters were very friendly and supportive in terms of encouraging me to ask questions, etc. I learned what holsters were acceptable and how many mag holders I would need for my desire to shoot production. Based upon the friendliness of everyone at the match, I for sure will come back and participate on a regular basis. I have ordered proper equipment and look forward to my first shoot in the coming weeks.

I must say that I have a long way to go regarding competing with others---I think the first year will be just figuring out what my capabilities are in an effort to define my own personal goals on how to get quicker and more accurate. I watched some pretty amazing shooters -- and must say was very intimidating. Not so much though that would prevent me from coming back to give it a try.

When I shot my first USPSA "match" (it wasn't a sanctioned match or anything, just a match set up in the USPSA fashion), I showed up (I was working out of town, and all I had was my carry gun, which is a Springfield Trophy Match, my holster, and two mags) and the guys loaned me everything I needed to shoot. In fact, when I tried to leave because I didn't have all the gear I needed, they stopped me and asked around to get the mags and other stuff to set me up. No better people around than people at a range (they always are very kind and polite, I guess cause they know that most everyone there has a loaded pistol on them! ).

[dleat]

Grumpy, that friendliness is a big part of what makes new shooters want to come back after their first match. Later it is because we love this sport. I am glad you ran into a group like that.

[ima45dv8]

What's with that name, "GrumpyOne"?

You don't seem so grumpy to me...

My wife says I can go from being Mr. Nice to Mr. Grumpy faster than a top fuel dragster down an 1/8 mile track. Read Relictraders post about IPSC and you should get an idea, or just look at the quote on my signature, or my personal statement!

Wives are easily mislead. I suspect you're just a big ol' teddy bear!

[Justsomeguy]

I just read this and I think there are a couple of reasons. Like several people mentioned, most "new shooters" are really concealed carry people who need a way to measure if they are going to be able to survive in case they have to use a gun. IDPA seems to be more geared to that kind of mindset. Plus it gives them a reasonable way to possibly improve whatever skills they might have as just licensed carry types for a reasonable amount of money. Given the shorter courses of fire and round count, it might cost $35 or so to shoot an IDPA match in factory ammo. With USPSA/IPSC it would be more like $100 or more! If you don't reload, and many do not, then IDPA would be more acceptable to you and your budget.

My local outdoor club used to hold at least one USPSA match a week. A couple of times this year they canceled the match. Not enough people would show up. They ran out of primers! At least this is the information I have been getting. I myself shot only one IPSC match in my life so far and that was several years ago, which allowed me to access the outdoor action shooting ranges so I could go down there, set up my own targets, and practice to my hearts content. I want to shoot again, but the last time I saw a course being set up with swingers, Texas stars, pop ups, twisters, and a lot of running involved I got less interested. I am 64 and have been shooting all my life. I can generally hit what I'm aiming at, but I can't sprint around anymore and I can't practice on the swingers, pop ups, twisters, Texas stars and so on because I don't own any and they are not just out there laying around waiting for me to use. I would like to shoot at some steel too, but again, it is not out there set up for someone like me to go and practice on. I have been bringing paper plates with me to the range for some years now, and recently downloaded the 5 or 6 most popular setups for steel challenge shooting so I might at least set those up at various ranges and at least try that out. Still... it is intimidating to me. I also got in the habit, after I retired, of staying up all night. My local range starts the competition day out at 8am... Hell, I just go to bed about 6am... how am I gonna make that call! If they started by say NOON that would be different. Yet, there is still all that running and all those strange moving targets I will never see until I go to a match.

I know the courses of fire have become more difficult in the last several years to keep it interesting for the top shooters. How many of those are there? I am not especially phased by the round count of USPSA since I reload, but how many people do that? I have enough magazines and mag holders, but dropping perfectly good magazines into the gravel and buying new ones constantly seems kinda a waste to me. I bought a timer and have a chronograph and use both. My times for transition drills and Bill Drills are better than anyone I have shot with from my "real life" but non-competitive to those I see posted here. You guys talk about going sub-2 second Bill Drills. I am lucky to do it in less than 3 and still get "A's". I never timed an "El Presidente" and am not really sure how to set it up. I wish there was a sticky here for all the drills regularly used so I wouldn't have to search through several pages mentioning a particular drill to actually parse out what it consisted of. All of those drills would seem necessary to someone like me who MIGHT want to try IPSC/USPSA type shooting. If I missed them being posted in some easy to see format then shame on me. How could I miss that?

So yeah... most new guys shoot IDPA 'cause the learning curve is much shorter. Why do they quit after one or two matches? 'Cause the don't see competition as their goal, but merely assessing their own skill level to see if they are adequate to the task of carrying a gun. Why don't more people immediately come into IPSC/USPSA shooting? Because you have to qualify at a range just to get to practice and you will never get to practice what you will be shooting at anyway, it takes a ton of money and a boatload of ammo to even TRY to get to be competitive, and meanwhile, for most, the kids need diapers, the wife wants to get new carpets, and the roof needs to be renewed. Then one day, you're 64 years old and though you might want to try it you can't run, your knees won't let you spring up from a "kneeling position" behind cover. You can't crawl through a tunnel while being timed, and you see yourself as non-competitive.

Still... I would like to try it again. I think I would like Steel Challenge too if I could actually get to practice or try it once. Maybe some day!

Sorry this took so long to express.

[RobMoore]

I forgot one more reason. In IDPA, a new shooter can get a classification their very first match, if someone is willing to stick around and set up the classifier and run them through it (15-20 minutes?).

If your local USPSA club only runs one match a month (like mine), you will be UC for at least 4 months.

[GrumpyOne]

I just read this and I think there are a couple of reasons. Like several people mentioned, most "new shooters" are really concealed carry people who need a way to measure if they are going to be able to survive in case they have to use a gun. IDPA seems to be more geared to that kind of mindset. Plus it gives them a reasonable way to possibly improve whatever skills they might have as just licensed carry types for a reasonable amount of money. Given the shorter courses of fire and round count, it might cost $35 or so to shoot an IDPA match in factory ammo. With USPSA/IPSC it would be more like $100 or more! If you don't reload, and many do not, then IDPA would be more acceptable to you and your budget.

My local outdoor club used to hold at least one USPSA match a week. A couple of times this year they canceled the match. Not enough people would show up. They ran out of primers! At least this is the information I have been getting. I myself shot only one IPSC match in my life so far and that was several years ago, which allowed me to access the outdoor action shooting ranges so I could go down there, set up my own targets, and practice to my hearts content. I want to shoot again, but the last time I saw a course being set up with swingers, Texas stars, pop ups, twisters, and a lot of running involved I got less interested. I am 64 and have been shooting all my life. I can generally hit what I'm aiming at, but I can't sprint around anymore and I can't practice on the swingers, pop ups, twisters, Texas stars and so on because I don't own any and they are not just out there laying around waiting for me to use. I would like to shoot at some steel too, but again, it is not out there set up for someone like me to go and practice on. I have been bringing paper plates with me to the range for some years now, and recently downloaded the 5 or 6 most popular setups for steel challenge shooting so I might at least set those up at various ranges and at least try that out. Still... it is intimidating to me. I also got in the habit, after I retired, of staying up all night. My local range starts the competition day out at 8am... Hell, I just go to bed about 6am... how am I gonna make that call! If they started by say NOON that would be different. Yet, there is still all that running and all those strange moving targets I will never see until I go to a match.

I know the courses of fire have become more difficult in the last several years to keep it interesting for the top shooters. How many of those are there? I am not especially phased by the round count of USPSA since I reload, but how many people do that? I have enough magazines and mag holders, but dropping perfectly good magazines into the gravel and buying new ones constantly seems kinda a waste to me. I bought a timer and have a chronograph and use both. My times for transition drills and Bill Drills are better than anyone I have shot with from my "real life" but non-competitive to those I see posted here. You guys talk about going sub-2 second Bill Drills. I am lucky to do it in less than 3 and still get "A's". I never timed an "El Presidente" and am not really sure how to set it up. I wish there was a sticky here for all the drills regularly used so I wouldn't have to search through several pages mentioning a particular drill to actually parse out what it consisted of. All of those drills would seem necessary to someone like me who MIGHT want to try IPSC/USPSA type shooting. If I missed them being posted in some easy to see format then shame on me. How could I miss that?

So yeah... most new guys shoot IDPA 'cause the learning curve is much shorter. Why do they quit after one or two matches? 'Cause the don't see competition as their goal, but merely assessing their own skill level to see if they are adequate to the task of carrying a gun. Why don't more people immediately come into IPSC/USPSA shooting? Because you have to qualify at a range just to get to practice and you will never get to practice what you will be shooting at anyway, it takes a ton of money and a boatload of ammo to even TRY to get to be competitive, and meanwhile, for most, the kids need diapers, the wife wants to get new carpets, and the roof needs to be renewed. Then one day, you're 64 years old and though you might want to try it you can't run, your knees won't let you spring up from a "kneeling position" behind cover. You can't crawl through a tunnel while being timed, and you see yourself as non-competitive.

Still... I would like to try it again. I think I would like Steel Challenge too if I could actually get to practice or try it once. Maybe some day!

Sorry this took so long to express.

Think of it this way; You aren't competing against anyone but yourself in any match. If you can't sprint between targets, walk then, etc. Qualifying is easy, you don't have to qualify as a Master, A, B, or C. Just qualify. If you compete against yourself, then your goal would be to beat your old time, score, etc. You don't have to be competitve with the young ones. If it's what you want to do , then do it!

[Chills1994]

the OP of this thread, CHA-LEE and I have PM'ed each other quite a bit about this topic.

My first guess would be ego, especially as it applies to cops. Yeah, granted you really don't see many cops show up to either an IDPA and/or USPSA match,....now I am just speculating here, so... a cop or three will show up to some local match, but I guess when they see how badly their behinds got handed to them when the results get posted to the web ...well... I guess in a way it is either intimidating and/or quite the blow to the ego, I mean after all they are "trained" cops and have to "qualify" once maybe twice a year, so they never show up to another match ever again.

I guess maybe, possibly the same kinda logic could apply to those same folks who go through a CCW course(in those free-er states). They might think they are all high speed ninja types after passing the CCW class, but then they make it out to a match and the realization hits them that NO!, they are NOT the next best gunslingers since James Bond or Wyatt Earp. Again, a blow to the ego.

[dleat]

Justsomeguy, I am 68 (well in a week or so) and shot my first handgun at 64 and USPSA match at 65. There is no way I will win against the younger faster shooter. I know that going in but I can tell you the difference between most of them and I has shrunk considerably. It will never be 0 and I don`t care. I am 5'5" and 190. Speed of foot is not my strong suite and it is important to winning in this great sport. I only compete against myself, which is by the way, the only one anyone can compete against. It is just you and the course of fire out there. Go out and shoot those trick targets and talk to others about the correct way to do it. They are just something else to hit with a bullet. If you are accurate you will suceed against them, just take your time.

You can shoot USPSA to win and, or, shoot it for the pleasure of it. I don`t enjoy it even a little less because a few others shoot a stage in half the time I do. I call that a victory because their time was was four times faster than me when I started.

Go have some fun with it, you just might get to like it!!!!!!!!!!!

[rdero]

I wish I lived where some of you have your matches. I recently retired out of the military and decided to move down south near a buddy who was wounded with me. I was interested in trying the "shooting sports". I even volunteered to help set up a match just to see how USPSA/ IPSC match was run. Even though I was told people were friendly and it was fun, it was not so for my buddy and me. We helped taped, brass, asked about scoring, etc. It was like we were a bother and got the feeling that we were wasting time by asking about the COF. When I talked to other competitors it was one word responses or they were too high an mighty to answer questions. We were really uncomfortable, and pretty much ignored. I'd like to go to one these new shooter friendly events everyone talks about. This experience pretty muched turned us off to this organization, and other buddies who would have liked to try. It would have been nice to shoot and learn without having rounds, RPG's, IED's going off. Just us trying to shoot because we enjoy it. I have nothing against anybody, but the "friendly and fun" enviroment wasn't experienced by either of us. Just my .02 cents. We did attend the HAVA event though and Todd Jarret, Rob Leatham and the rest were very cool and friendly. This was the reason we decided to go to an USPSA match. I really like this site as I learn from all of you and enjoy reading some of your posts.

Edited August 16, 2009 by rdero

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I really hate to hear that - it's a damn shame. I have no idea where you are located, but if you ever find your way to Central TX, I can virtually guarantee you a warm reception at any of our local clubs. Most folks around here will bend over backwards to help a new guy out. If you can muster up the desire to give it one more try I'd encourage you to do so - this time at a different club.

I have heard anecdotal evidence of clubs that were "cliche'y" but haven't actually been to one. Give it another try somewhere else and I bet you'll have a better experience. In my experience, the key to being taken care of is to let the Match Director know that you're a new shooter and are anxious to shoot the match safely and learn as much as you can.

ETA - What did you do in the military? I'm career Army - 23 years and still going strong. Looking at your avatar - guessing you spent some time with 10th MTN. Never served with that unit - Watertown is just too damn cold for this southern boy.

Edited August 16, 2009 by Duane Thomas

[dleat]

First of all, THANK YOU for your service!

I am afraid what you experienced happens more often than we know. Obviously the ones who act like that don`t come here and brag about it. I could try to make excuses for it but I really don`t any valid reason for this to happen. I hope you can find a better place to shoot.

[rdero]

I was Infantry, was 82nd and then when Ft. Drum got a hold of me was there for 8 years. I didn't get to do my full tour, only have 12 years in before i got "retired". I want to thank you for your all those who serve or have served service. I'm going to another club tomorrow and I do hope it is different.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

Welcome to the site and the sport! I'm Field Artillery - an old school Cannon Cocker and Redleg to the core. My only brush with Airborne life was the School at Benning - yep, a 5 Jump Chump.

I'll go out on a limb and assume your early retirement was medical and based on your wartime service - seems to be a lot of that going around. At any rate - Thank You for your Service as well.

Hope you have a better reception at the club you're going to tomorrow. Where are you living now and which club are you going to tomorrow? There's a very good chance that someone on this board is a member of the club you'll be shooting with. Anyway, if I can answer any questions or help you in any way - don't hesitate to let me know.

ETA - I see you're in TX. I'm stationed at Fort Hood (near Killeen) but live in Belton. I'm somewhat of a "Regular" at most matches between Waco and San Antonio whenever my work schedule will allow. If you have any questions about matches in this area, drop me a PM and I can get you linked in with the right folks to ensure you and your buddy are treated right.

Doug

Edited August 16, 2009 by Duane Thomas

[Chills1994]

@ rdero... well... that certainly is a bummer that you were treated like that. Thank you for your service.

Just to try to give that club some benefit of the doubt, yeah, there are times when a bunch of Type A personalities get together and there's this clash of...well... like ideologies ...almost.

And if it's not all the different personalties butting heads, then well, my second guess is that sometimes people just get too into their zone and have their game faces on.

If you ever make it to the St. Louis area, we have enough regulars with extra guns, holster rigs, and ammo that would be more than willing to show you and your buddies the ropes.

[Justsomeguy]

Think of it this way; You aren't competing against anyone but yourself in any match. If you can't sprint between targets, walk then, etc. Qualifying is easy, you don't have to qualify as a Master, A, B, or C. Just qualify. If you compete against yourself, then your goal would be to beat your old time, score, etc. You don't have to be competitve with the young ones. If it's what you want to do , then do it!

Hiya Grumpy...

That would seem to be the correct attitude for someone like me I think. I just like to shoot. I'm not really concerned about what place I come in, though everyone wants to at least show some flash! It's always about beating yourself really as you say. Maybe I'll see you out there sometime!

[rdero]

@ rdero... well... that certainly is a bummer that you were treated like that. Thank you for your service.

Just to try to give that club some benefit of the doubt, yeah, there are times when a bunch of Type A personalities get together and there's this clash of...well... like ideologies ...almost.

And if it's not all the different personalties butting heads, then well, my second guess is that sometimes people just get too into their zone and have their game faces on.

If you ever make it to the St. Louis area, we have enough regulars with extra guns, holster rigs, and ammo that would be more than willing to show you and your buddies the ropes.

No worries, like Mr. GrumpyOne said, I go because I like to shoot. I understand how it goes, things happen, I learn to take it with a grain of salt. I will definitely continue regardless, just to better myself. I appreciate all the positive feed back.

[Fullauto_Shooter]

I wish I lived where some of you have your matches. I recently retired out of the military and decided to move down south near a buddy who was wounded with me. I was interested in trying the "shooting sports". I even volunteered to help set up a match just to see how USPSA/ IPSC match was run. Even though I was told people were friendly and it was fun, it was not so for my buddy and me. We helped taped, brass, asked about scoring, etc. It was like we were a bother and got the feeling that we were wasting time by asking about the COF. When I talked to other competitors it was one word responses or they were too high an mighty to answer questions. We were really uncomfortable, and pretty much ignored. I'd like to go to one these new shooter friendly events everyone talks about. This experience pretty muched turned us off to this organization, and other buddies who would have liked to try. It would have been nice to shoot and learn without having rounds, RPG's, IED's going off. Just us trying to shoot because we enjoy it. I have nothing against anybody, but the "friendly and fun" enviroment wasn't experienced by either of us. Just my .02 cents. We did attend the HAVA event though and Todd Jarret, Rob Leatham and the rest were very cool and friendly. This was the reason we decided to go to an USPSA match. I really like this site as I learn from all of you and enjoy reading some of your posts.

So - how did the second match go? Was your reception any better?