RO interference from an Audio standpoint

[Vulture]

I can't support it with a rule and i don't care. If the score keeper is behind me and i lose control of a shooter and can't see what is going on and safety is compromised i may yell stop. Now i have yet to do it and i have been hit with slag many times and have never lost control of a shooter. But you must reserve the right to do so if the situation arrises. An experienced shooter that you have shot with many times is one thing, a newbe is another. Like i said, i have never done it. But in a certian situation i would.

[mactiger]

I can't support it with a rule and i don't care. <snip>

I can:

8.3.5 “Stop” – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command

at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately

cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from

the Range Officer.

Emphasis is mine.

We always try to err on the side of safety, and this particular circumstance certainly justifies issuing the stop command.

Troy

[GrumpyOne]

I agree with Singlestack. Even though the rules state that the shooter shouldn’t stop themselves until given the range command of "STOP" there are safety failure conditions where the shooter needs to assess the situation and error on the safety side of the street.

Singlestack gives a perfect example of this. The RO was incapacitated by the splatter and couldn’t issue the STOP command, so he stopped himself.

Gary gives another example. If the RO is getting tangled up with the shooter while he is shooting that is a VERY dangerous situation. No matter how determined the shooter is he should have stopped himself to ensure the situation was handled safely as soon as the RO touched him verses chugging along like a machine. Why didn’t the RO issue the STOP command as soon as the tangle started? That is a good point in its self. We all know how quickly situations can happen on a COF and a lot of times the “STOP” command is given AFTER the infraction happens, not exactly when it does happen. So its really up to the shooter to assess the situation and act accordingly to ensure the situation is safe.

I don’t know about you guys but for me there is no stage run worth risking the safety of myself or others. If I am in the middle of a COF and I hear the RO yell out anything that I can’t immediately understand and dismiss I am going to stop myself to ensure that everything is safe. If my stage run is impacted and I don’t get a reshoot, then oh well. I at least made sure that the situation was safe. I am willing to throw away a stage run if I have to in order to ensure a safe shooting environment. I would hope that most other shooters feel this way as well.

I also want to point out that the original situation that I depicted was not me. I witnessed it happen to another shooter. From a safety standpoint, I believe that the shooter did the right thing in stopping himself. From an RO standpoint, I believe that the RO didn’t yell out on purpose to ruin the shooters run. It was just a reaction to being hit by the splatter. But I do think it was bad form for the RO to not STOP the shooter as soon as he seen the hesitation to his outburst and offer a reshoot.

+100

I mean, is a stage that important that someones life can be risked? If I hear ANY sound from the RO, I stop. With all of the rounds going off, my bad hearing as it is.....Better safe than sorry.

[GrumpyOne]

In one match I was shooting in, a piece of brass ejected from my Springfield, over my right shoulder, and down in between the RO's glasses and face. I had no idea at the time, she never said a word, but when my string was done, I turned around, saw the RO on the ground, glasses off, trying to wipe the tears away from her burnt eyelid. Some one should have yelled stop, or come up to time me, but no one did. So, as a result, even though I shot the string clear, had no misses, since the RO was on the floor and the scorer was there looking after her, no one stopped the timer, forcing me to reshoot, to which I ended up with 2 mikes on the reshoot.

[Singlestack]

I can't support it with a rule and i don't care. If the score keeper is behind me and i lose control of a shooter and can't see what is going on and safety is compromised i may yell stop. Now i have yet to do it and i have been hit with slag many times and have never lost control of a shooter. But you must reserve the right to do so if the situation arrises. An experienced shooter that you have shot with many times is one thing, a newbe is another. Like i said, i have never done it. But in a certian situation i would.

If you think you can control a shooter you are deluded.

[pjb45]

I was at an Area Match when there was an external interference. The RO apologized for the interference but did not know the rule. I looked the rule up, we called the RM. The RM listen to circumstances and approved the reshoot. The RO was definitely in favor of the reshoot but we needed the approval from the RM.

In a local match, the COF was set up at an angle to the berm. When I swung to shoot at some targets on my left, just about 10-15 yards up range were two shooters at the safety table. The targets were up range from where I was standing but well within the 90 degrees. So I was not breaking that rule. They saw me swing and began ducking and back tracking. The targets and the safety table were all in the same visual picture. The three CROs in the squad decided it was not an external interference and would not grant a reshoot. I did pause for them to get out of the way before firing.

BTW: I feel anyone in a local match can yell stop if there is a personal safety issue. In one of our clubs, it is possible for motorcycle riders to ride on the hills behind the berm. The club rule is to stop firing, match or no match.

[mgood]

At a local match today, I was taking aim at a target. The RO thought I was trying to lean around a barricade to shoot a swinger before I activated it. I was not trying to shoot the swinger, but another target further down range. It was an unorthodox position to shoot that particular target from, but legal. I'm slow as molasses anyway, so there was plenty of time for the RO to chat, lol. He's saying, "Don't shoot that one! No! You can't shoot that one yet." I paused and turned my head partially towards him, abandoning my sight picture, and tell him that I'm not trying to shoot the swinger. I ended up not shooting that target from that position and moved on. After my run, I was offered a reshoot. I took the reshoot and maybe did slightly better the second time. (Not positive because the first run wasn't scored.)

I knew what he was trying to warn me about and I knew I wasn't doing anything wrong. I probably should have just kept doing what I was doing and if he thought I did something wrong, he could penalize me afterward. Were I a little more experienced, I might have done just that. But, no biggie.

Another example, also today, the shoe was on the other foot. I somehow ended up with the timer. I am not a certified RO, but I have run a timer a couple times when it was the RO's turn to shoot. I was figuring out how to operate an unfamiliar timer rather than thinking through what I'm supposed to do. I thought I did well. I managed to stay close to the shooter but stay out of his way and watch for safety issues and fault lines and stuff like that. After the run, the shooter, who is a member here, quietly pointed out that I forgot to say "Standby."

I pretty sure he would have been justified in asking for a reshoot and I probably should have offered one. But he had a pretty good run and nothing more was said about it.

[mactiger]

At a local match today, I was taking aim at a target. The RO thought I was trying to lean around a barricade to shoot a swinger before I activated it. I was not trying to shoot the swinger, but another target further down range. It was an unorthodox position to shoot that particular target from, but legal. I'm slow as molasses anyway, so there was plenty of time for the RO to chat, lol. He's saying, "Don't shoot that one! No! You can't shoot that one yet." I paused and turned my head partially towards him, abandoning my sight picture, and tell him that I'm not trying to shoot the swinger. I ended up not shooting that target from that position and moved on. After my run, I was offered a reshoot. I took the reshoot and maybe did slightly better the second time. (Not positive because the first run wasn't scored.)

I knew what he was trying to warn me about and I knew I wasn't doing anything wrong. I probably should have just kept doing what I was doing and if he thought I did something wrong, he could penalize me afterward. Were I a little more experienced, I might have done just that. But, no biggie.

Actually, he should not have said anything about that particular target. I know he was just trying to help you out, but it's not legal for the RO to coach you, unless he's giving safety warnings.

Troy

[mgood]

Actually, he should not have said anything about that particular target. I know he was just trying to help you out, but it's not legal for the RO to coach you, unless he's giving safety warnings.

I know it's not legal, but it seems pretty common at local matches in this area, especially when they're trying to help new shooters.

I've been shooting pistol matches for not quite a year. Though I knew a couple of the guys from matches at another club, it was my first time at this club. And with my slow speed and hacked-together Production gear (I usually shoot Single Stack), I probably struck him as even more of a newbie than I am.

He was trying to be helpful. And I did get a reshoot.

Edited August 16, 2009 by mgood

[kgunz11]

I can't support it with a rule and i don't care. <snip>

I can:

8.3.5 "Stop" – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command

at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately

cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from

the Range Officer.

Emphasis is mine.

We always try to err on the side of safety, and this particular circumstance certainly justifies issuing the stop command.

Troy

So you would stop the shooter instead of letting the score keeper take over? I thought it was a team effort and the score keeper could fill in. The poster said he was instructing all new RO's to stop the shooter if they lost control of them. I agree with Singlestack on the control thing, sounds like a lot of stoppages going on under those guidelines.

[Vulture]

The phrase "under my control" means basiclly under my supervision. I can see what you are doing and the actions you are taking. (movement with finger on trigger, reloads with fingers on trigger, foot faults,ect.) It does not mean you can control where they go or what they do. And an RO has never stopped anyone (for not being able to supervise them) at any of the clubs i belong to even though they should have on occasion. If a score taker can take over, fine. But sometimes a score taker can't do it because they are too far away watching the shooter from a different angle or area or whatever. Then you should have the option of stopping the shooter. Don't read anything extra into this dissussion, it's a safety thing not a control thing. No one is trying to make your life harder they are trying to make it longer.

[Singlestack]

The phrase "under my control" means basiclly under my supervision. I can see what you are doing and the actions you are taking. (movement with finger on trigger, reloads with fingers on trigger, foot faults,ect.) It does not mean you can control where they go or what they do. And an RO has never stopped anyone (for not being able to supervise them) at any of the clubs i belong to even though they should have on occasion. If a score taker can take over, fine. But sometimes a score taker can't do it because they are too far away watching the shooter from a different angle or area or whatever. Then you should have the option of stopping the shooter. Don't read anything extra into this dissussion, it's a safety thing not a control thing. No one is trying to make your life harder they are trying to make it longer.

Understood

[mactiger]

I can't support it with a rule and i don't care. <snip>

I can:

8.3.5 "Stop" – Any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue this command

at any time during the course of fire. The competitor must immediately

cease firing, stop moving and wait for further instructions from

the Range Officer.

Emphasis is mine.

We always try to err on the side of safety, and this particular circumstance certainly justifies issuing the stop command.

Troy

So you would stop the shooter instead of letting the score keeper take over? I thought it was a team effort and the score keeper could fill in. The poster said he was instructing all new RO's to stop the shooter if they lost control of them. I agree with Singlestack on the control thing, sounds like a lot of stoppages going on under those guidelines.

I didn't say the score keeper couldn't take over, but it's not likely in most cases that he'll be aware or on the ball enough to just step right in without some kind of communication between him and the RO. So, yes, the best thing to do is say "STOP", and then take care of business. The question was about whether there was a rule that allowed the RO to stop the competitor: there is, and I quoted it. RO problems rarely crop up in any event, unless there's something badly wrong with the stage or the props. If people are getting hit a lot by splatter or bounce-back, there's something wrong with the steel that needs to be fixed.

So, the simple answer, in any case where the RO has become confused, injured, or "lost control" (and I agree with Vulture's assessment of control), the best thing to do is say STOP. Safety must be our number one concern; reshoots are a fact of life.

Troy

Edited August 16, 2009 by mactiger

[Flexmoney]

Well said.