cbmax Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hi All, As you can see this is my first post on the forum. Lots of great information here. I need an optic to complete my 3 gun AR-15 build. Here are the general specs on the rifle: Stag Arms Upper and Lower JP Enterprises Fire Control White Oak Armament 18.5 SPR barrel and headspaced bolt JP Enterprises Muzzlebrake VTAC Handguard Ace Skeleton Stock Ergo Grip Norgon Ambi Safety I am set on getting a 1-4 variable power scope. The question is which one? I have searched this forum and found some good information but wanted to see if there is anything more current. First question is how important is a daylight visible illuminated reticle? Thus far I only have experience with an Eotech. Here are some of the scopes I have researched and considered: Trijicon TR24 (Post and triangle) - Not readily available. Reasonable priced and lightweight. Not sure I truly like the reticle. Schmidt & Bender Short Dot- Out of my price range at the moment. Reticle is daylight visbile. Swavorski Z6i 1-6 - Really nice scope but same as above Nightforce NXS 1-4, FC-2 Reticle - This was my first choice but I understand reticle is NOT daylight visible. Like this reticle alot. Meopta 1-4 K-dot - Daylight visibility. Good reticle. Top Contender. Only downside is length. Possibly on the long side. IOR Valdada 1-4 - Not sure if reticle is daylight visble. Heard bad things on customer service. Possibly too heavy? US Optics 1-4 - Seems like a quality scope but again might be to big and bulky. Not sure if reticle is daylight visible. Please let me know what you think and what other choices I may have missed. I think that $1,300 is about the top end of my budget. I like reticles that have a circle dot with several hold over markings, but nothing overly cluttered or confusing (like Horus Vision) Thanks for all your help! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Hey Chris.....Welcome I can write a book on low power riflescopes about as much as I can comps. I'll start by saying I run the Swarovski Z6i 1-6(circle dot) and it is an unbelievable advantage for me. It was worth every penny. But in the 1-4 range and to fit within your budget....I would look really hard at the Meopta or Trijicon TR24 and probably plan on dropping $200 on a good LaRue mount too. The Meopta does not have zeroing turrets but the Trijicon does and its a very nice feature that I prefer. My Z6 has zeroing knobs just not as big as I would like them. In the Trijicon I prefer the crosshairs with the amber dot. The green dot washes badly in bright sunlight. Several folks prefer the red triangle reticle. I'm a dot kinda guy. The triangle just does not seem natural to my eye. But YMMV....thats gonna be a decision for you to make. Both are daytime visible. But neither have holdover style stadia reticles. But they work well for 3 gun out to 400 with ease dependant on your zero distance. The Meopta is battery powered but has an etched reticle that is still visible if battery goes dead. The Trijicon is illuminated by fiber optic and tritium and has an adjustable sunshade to filter the amount of light the FO absorbs. I've had the S&B Short Dot and USO. My big complaint about both of those was that the reticle was in the front/first focal plane. I hate that feature in a low power scope and find it to be detrimental to my needs. The Short Dot was very bright in daylight and also worked very well for close targets due to the dot. The USO reticle was no where near visible in daylight and the front focal plane caused the reticle to be too small on 1x and too large on 4x. The power ring also had a weird almost 360 degree throw on it to go from 1x to 4x. But the glass was phenomenal. Every bit as good as my Z6. One of my favorite 3 gun scopes is the Leupold CQT. I started using that scope and still use it for matches and tactical use. I really like it. Downside is the illumination is not daytime visible. But at 1-3 it is a great scope with a large field of view for such a small objective. I have made shots out to 350 yards with ease using my 200 yd zero. One of the most important factors to look for is a true 1x. I tried the Leupold 1.5-5x and the difraction and offset on the 1.5 was just too distracting for close targets for me. But there are plenty of national champs who use it and use it well. I really did like the 5x on it. Also look at the latest generation Burris Tactical 1-4. I've heard alot of recent reports of big improvements with it. Hope this helps start to get some answers to your post. ETA: Chuck Anderson just picked up one of the new IOR Pitbull 1 x 4 scopes. Looks pretty cool. I am interested to see the reports come out on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike P Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 The IOR 1x4 is heavy and the illumination is not what I'd consider daytime visible. However, the horseshoe is big enough to see without illumination. The glass is top quality. I've used their customer service and had no problems, in fact found them as accomodating as any mfr that I've dealt with. HTH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan 45 Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 I had a much smaller budget when I put together a upper for Tac Optics recently. I shoot HM and limited typically, so I didn't want to put a bunch of money into an upper I would only occasionally use. I went with a Bushnell Elite 4200 30mm 1.25x4 w/ illuminated dot. The crosshairs are a German plex style, with a center illuminated dot. I took it to the range last Sunday- under clear skies around 2:00 pm, the dot was visible. The glass is clear enough to see most .223 holes at 100 yards when set on x4. Best of all, the price at Amazon.com for this scope is $318. Keeping with the budget theme, I used a JP 30mm mount. I don't need QD on this rifle, and as nice as the Larue mounts are, I didn't want to fork over the coin. I can shoot NTCH w/ this combo, although I don't feel "fast" with it at close range. Like I said, I typically shoot Irons, so it may take a while to get use to this new-fangled device. I had the focus off on the camera on this one, or I think you would have seen the dot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmax Posted July 30, 2009 Author Share Posted July 30, 2009 All, Thank you for the welcome and feedback thus far!!!! It looks like the Meopta is top pick so far. I am still a little torn though, because I really like the reticle on the Nightforce NXS (FC-2). How important is the daylight illumination? I am thinking this is a key feature so the Nightforce is probably out. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 Daylight illumination is not a requirement but it sure is a benefit. I used to use scopes that were not daytime visible but the first time I used the Short Dot after not having illumination.....I realized how fast and beneficial it is for the fast targets 25 yards and in. It was truly night and day to me. Much easier to track under fire too. I highly prefer and recommend daytime illumination. And after having a NF......I can say it was a great scope. If it had illumination it would be hard to beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Morcillo Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) I just bought a Burris XTR 1x4. Shot it for the first time today, zeroed at 100 yards. Glass is clear and holes in target easily seen at 4x. I like the BDC reticle w/illumination. I have never had a scope like this and I think it gives me the advantage of a dot at close range and the BDC for long shots. The stadia are set for 62gr at 3000fps, but you can tailor a load that is very similar in ballistics and get good hits. The scope and mount feels heavy to me. But, I was using a Simmons Pro Diamond 1.25x5 scope with M&A mount. That worked really well, and with the zero at 250 yds, hold over wasn't necessary until 400yds. You can zero at a different distance for you match needs. Anyway, the scope is back at Simmons for repair, couldn't hold windage after three seasons of shooting. It still is a good, inexpensive setup. For me, the BDC is what sold me. Hope this helps. Edited July 30, 2009 by Mike Morcillo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMAC Posted July 30, 2009 Share Posted July 30, 2009 (edited) Welcome to the forum! It's sounds like you are off to a good start. I had an Eotech when I started and decided to get a Meopta. I think it's great scope and a great value (I found mine on-line for $600 new) and I've heard they have great customer service. I had a budget in your range and I don't feel like I had to make any compromise with my choice, even though it cost much less than I was willing to spend. Below is a great link to a thread dedicated to low power variable scopes for 3 Gun. Good luck! 3 Gun Rifle Optics Edited July 30, 2009 by DMAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmax Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Okay, I am going to order the Meopta K-dot tomorrow. I have got another question. What height rings should I get? The AR is a flat top, but I will be using a GG&G Scout rail in order to make sure I get the optic far enough forward. The scout rail is .50 inches high. I will not be using a BUIS. I was thinking about the A.R.M.S. QD. Issue is the which height? Will the low model be too low? I think the high model will be too high. Suggestions? I am using this set up because this is a left handed rifle and the throw levers on the Larue one piece mount do not allow the ejection port to fully open so I wanted to go with rings that are reversible. Folks previously told me to just remove the ejection port cover and use the Larue, but I'm not interested in that route. I was also told that that the ejection port would still allow brass to eject even if not fully opened, but it just bothered me. I am open to your suggestions on the best height rings to sit on top of the scout rail. I'd like rings with throw levers but it is not absolutely necessary. Any other brands / models that would be recommended? Let me know exactly which ones. Thanks in advance! Chris Edited July 31, 2009 by cbmax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
00bullitt Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Get high rings for the scout rail. Mediums are too low. Normally you need xtra high. Larue makes QD rings that you can mount on the opposite side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadeslade Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 (edited) Wow, 00bullitt is a veritable encyclopedia. Congratulations, Tod on being new mod! Back to post. + 1 everything he said. Are you going to be shooting Tac Optics or open? You may want to borrow a scope before you buy one. The TR24 is the hot scope right now, for good reasons, the glass is crystal clear and it just works. Red is good, but you may prefer amber (I think this is due to rods and cones issue about who sees what color better) One of my buddies got a TR24 a few months ago and sold his Meopta Meostar to a deer hunter. If you can put two optics on, the ACOG of your preference plus a small red dot is really excellent. I like the TA01NSN because of the BDC reticle. And the tritium post at night! Welcome. Oh yeah, once you try the Larue mounts, you'll never go back. Edited July 31, 2009 by Jadeslade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 Look at the Armalite 1 piece mount. Puts the scope at just the right height for me, and extends far enough forward for my Meopta's eye relief. You can place the mount with the forward knob in front of the rail. The mount has a built-in lug that will engage the farthest forward rail notch with the mount in that placement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxshooter Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 If the weight does not bother you the IOR Valdada 1-4 is excellent. The illumination is not any help during the day unless you run into a stage that is shaded. The reticle on this scope is great for 3 gun and you really don't need it illuminated. The glass is very good. As far as customer service in my experience they have been excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revopop Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 Just so y'all are aware, Midway has most of the 1-4 TR24s in stock. The only ones they don't are the green dot ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted August 1, 2009 Share Posted August 1, 2009 If the weight does not bother you the IOR Valdada 1-4 is excellent. The illumination is not any help during the day unless you run into a stage that is shaded. The reticle on this scope is great for 3 gun and you really don't need it illuminated. The glass is very good. As far as customer service in my experience they have been excellent. DITTO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero-down Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 I just picked up the new Burris XTR and I would definitely recommend it. Illum. works in the daytime too and has the BDC for holdovers. Great scope for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmax Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 JN, I didn't pull the trigger on the Meopta yet. I actually have a standing order on the Trijicon TR24R at Larue Tactical. Do you think you got a newer version of the Burris? I honestly heard that the illumination was not daytime visible when this optic first came out. Please let me know your findings. Thanks. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zero-down Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 CB, Yes, I did get the new XTR. The distinguishing factor that I know of to tell the difference is the battery. The older model used a CR2025 where the new one uses the CR2032. I can't compare old to new but I can say that you can see the illum in the daytime with the new scope w/ the CR2032 battery. I ran through some <15 yard drills yesterday and it worked great. -jn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbmax Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 JN, Can you tell me where you found the new version in stock? I understand the new model # is 201904. I can't find anybody that has one. They all still say 201902 which is the older version. Thanks. CB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jobob Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 JN,Can you tell me where you found the new version in stock? I understand the new model # is 201904. I can't find anybody that has one. They all still say 201902 which is the older version. Thanks. CB You might want to call to verify which stock # it is. I have the feeling that many companies don't update their websites with new stock #s if the new item is substantially the same as the old item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grywlfbg Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 JN,Can you tell me where you found the new version in stock? I understand the new model # is 201904. I can't find anybody that has one. They all still say 201902 which is the older version. Thanks. CB They did not change the model # - with both boxes side by side I couldn't see anything different. I ordered an XTR and mount combo from LaRue back in June and it was the new one. See also: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...opic=87354& Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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