Help! My load doesn't group.

[SCMA-1]

Here is my load:

Bullet: WestCoast 180gr RNFP plated (now called Xtreme bullets)

Case: mixed

Powder: 4.5gr TiteGroup

Primer: Winchester SP

Cartridge OAL: 1.135

My problem is this load is all over the place. I've shot this load in 4 different pistols (2- G22's, CZ-40B, CZ-75B SA) with equally poor results. I have trouble keeping all rounds within the C zone of an IPSC target during slow fire at 25 yards. I can normally keep all my shots on the head of an IPSC target rapid fire at 25 yards. I did a test to confirm the load with some factory UMC 180gr FMJ rounds and sure enough, they shot fine with all the guns listed. I did have an issue many years ago with lead/plated 9mm loads and eventually gave up and switched to FMJ. I would like to use economically priced lead or plated bullets for my 40's. What am I doing wrong?

SCMA-1

[Dan Sierpina]

The first thing I would change is the plated bullet. I have never had a plated bullet that would shoot as well as a cast bullet, let alone any normally jacketed bullet. You can try backing off the crimp a bit first, to see if it helps.

[SCMA-1]

The first thing I would change is the plated bullet. I have never had a plated bullet that would shoot as well as a cast bullet, let alone any normally jacketed bullet. You can try backing off the crimp a bit first, to see if it helps.

Thanks for the quick reply. My crimper is set for "no crimp"; basically just to remove the case mouth bell like all my other loads. I was thinking about trying some hardcast of the same weight but am concerned with leading; do you think this load substituted with hardcast will lead my barrels? Also, are 40's OAL sensitive as far as accuracy is concerned? I'm just wondering if I should try different OAL like 1.18-1.20.

SCMA-1

[yoshidaex]

as Dan suggested, back off on the crimp.

to verify if you have just enough crimp, pull apart one of your finished rounds. if there's a impression on the bullet from the crimp, you got too much crimp.

also a different powder may help with accuracy issues.

[SCMA-1]

as Dan suggested, back off on the crimp.

to verify if you have just enough crimp, pull apart one of your finished rounds. if there's a impression on the bullet from the crimp, you got too much crimp.

also a different powder may help with accuracy issues.

The reason why I chose Titegroup to work up my load was because it comes well recommended among other IPSC shooters and I wanted to standardize my powders; I already have a Titegroup load in 45ACP which performs very well. I'd be more inclined to choose different bullets for my next batch if the accuracy issue can't be resolved with the current bullet. I would like to know however, why this load is shooting so poorly and if it's something I did wrong or just an incompatible combination of components. I've gradually been switching my loads over to plated bullets for health reasons but also for lower maintenance (no leading) and they are a bit cheaper than FMJ. Thanks for your response.

SCMA-1

[The_Vigilante]

I haven't used Xtreme bullets myself but have talked to several shooters who have and to put it mildly they weren't very impressed with the bullets. YMMV.

[L9X25]

What is the diameter of the projectiles? If they are .400 or less that will likely be your problem. Cast or plated should be .401+ to maintain the accuracy while jacketed can get away with .400.

[SCMA-1]

What is the diameter of the projectiles? If they are .400 or less that will likely be your problem. Cast or plated should be .401+ to maintain the accuracy while jacketed can get away with .400.

OK......I just mic'd one and guess what? They vary between .399-.400. I guess that could be the problem? How do they get away with selling them like that though? Problem is that I have another 1500 or so of these rounds that I loaded from my last batch.

SCMA-1

[The_Vigilante]

Use them for practice and find another supplier for your bullets.

[SCMA-1]

It's interesting; I went to their website and they show that both their hard cast and plated bullets are sized at .400. I then looked at Berrys and Rainier Bullets. Rainier also sizes their plated bullets at .400 but Berrys shows their 40 cal plated bullets sized to .401. I guess I should try some Berrys or some hardcast.

Thanks for everyone's help!

SCMA-1

Edited July 13, 2009 by SCMA-1

[L9X25]

It's interesting; I went to their website and they show that both their hard cast and plated bullets are sized at .400. I then looked at Berrys and Rainier Bullets. Rainier also sizes their plated bullets at .400 but Berrys shows their 40 cal plated bullets sized to .401. I guess I should try some Berrys or some hardcast.

Thanks for everyone's help!

SCMA-1

If you do a search (try this one: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...6&hl=plated ) you will find many threads on plated bullet accuracy. Even manufacturers that claim .401 do not always ship that. When the problems arise with the plated projectiles they are usually undersized.

Even with properly sized projectiles you need to pay attantion to the crimp (NO crimp) as noted in the posts above. Being .401 is not a guarantee that they will group well without attention to the other details. Since the price of plated projectiles is very close to low end jacketed, there is not much motivation for me to ever go back to plated.

[SCMA-1]

It's interesting; I went to their website and they show that both their hard cast and plated bullets are sized at .400. I then looked at Berrys and Rainier Bullets. Rainier also sizes their plated bullets at .400 but Berrys shows their 40 cal plated bullets sized to .401. I guess I should try some Berrys or some hardcast.

Thanks for everyone's help!

SCMA-1

If you do a search (try this one: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...6&hl=plated ) you will find many threads on plated bullet accuracy. Even manufacturers that claim .401 do not always ship that. When the problems arise with the plated projectiles they are usually undersized.

Even with properly sized projectiles you need to pay attantion to the crimp (NO crimp) as noted in the posts above. Being .401 is not a guarantee that they will group well without attention to the other details. Since the price of plated projectiles is very close to low end jacketed, there is not much motivation for me to ever go back to plated.

Wow! Thanks for the link. Now I'm really skeptical about plated bullets for 40; they work great in my 45's but I'm getting tired of experimenting with the 40 and need to settle on a load that I can have confidence in. I'd really like to stay away from handling lead bullets but the problem is jacketed bullets are SO expensive nowadays. I know about Montana Gold and they seem about the cheapest for jacketed. Can you recommend a source for jacketed bullets that are reasonably priced? I'm in Southern Cal btw.

Thanks,

SCMA-1

[G-ManBart]

It's interesting; I went to their website and they show that both their hard cast and plated bullets are sized at .400. I then looked at Berrys and Rainier Bullets. Rainier also sizes their plated bullets at .400 but Berrys shows their 40 cal plated bullets sized to .401. I guess I should try some Berrys or some hardcast.

Thanks for everyone's help!

SCMA-1

If you do a search (try this one: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...6&hl=plated ) you will find many threads on plated bullet accuracy. Even manufacturers that claim .401 do not always ship that. When the problems arise with the plated projectiles they are usually undersized.

Even with properly sized projectiles you need to pay attantion to the crimp (NO crimp) as noted in the posts above. Being .401 is not a guarantee that they will group well without attention to the other details. Since the price of plated projectiles is very close to low end jacketed, there is not much motivation for me to ever go back to plated.

Wow! Thanks for the link. Now I'm really skeptical about plated bullets for 40; they work great in my 45's but I'm getting tired of experimenting with the 40 and need to settle on a load that I can have confidence in. I'd really like to stay away from handling lead bullets but the problem is jacketed bullets are SO expensive nowadays. I know about Montana Gold and they seem about the cheapest for jacketed. Can you recommend a source for jacketed bullets that are reasonably priced? I'm in Southern Cal btw.

Thanks,

SCMA-1

Precision Delta makes a decent 180gr FMJ that's nearly a round nose profile...feeds well in all the guns I've tried them and they're less expensive than Montana Gold by a bit. They're also less expensive then Berry's or Rainer plated

A while back I heard some folks had issues with the PD bullets, but I've shot about 10-12K of them without a single problem and good accuracy. R,

[SCMA-1]

Precision Delta makes a decent 180gr FMJ that's nearly a round nose profile...feeds well in all the guns I've tried them and they're less expensive than Montana Gold by a bit. They're also less expensive then Berry's or Rainer plated

A while back I heard some folks had issues with the PD bullets, but I've shot about 10-12K of them without a single problem and good accuracy. R,

OK....thanks for the source. I just went to their site and the 180 FMJ's are 106/K shipped to my area. That is cheaper then any other plated or jacketed I've seen so far.

Please keep the suggestions coming!

SCMA-1

[Joe4d]

West coast or extreme or what ever name they are using now are so bad they change the name back and forth to fool a new batch of shooters into buying them. They are so bad they are unsafe. Get your crimp set and the next bullet will be undersized and KABOOOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! caused by bullet setback, do yourself a favor and put them on a drill press drill a little hole down the center and use them for carolina rigging fishing weights.

[SCMA-1]

West coast or extreme or what ever name they are using now are so bad they change the name back and forth to fool a new batch of shooters into buying them. They are so bad they are unsafe. Get your crimp set and the next bullet will be undersized and KABOOOM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! caused by bullet setback, do yourself a favor and put them on a drill press drill a little hole down the center and use them for carolina rigging fishing weights.

Yes! Thanks for the reminder about 40 being more sensitive to setback. My current loads are about as light a crimp as I dare go; that is, they have no crimp only the bell is removed from the case mouth. Than again, it shouldn't be this difficult to get a half way decent performing load. I'm just about convinced that I'm going to have to pay a little more for jacketed stuff. The accuracy, reliability, and peace of mind should pretty much justify the increased cost.

Thanks for your input!

SCMA-1

[ChrisC]

do yourself a favor and put them on a drill press drill a little hole down the center and use them for carolina rigging fishing weights.

that's the best idea i've hear in a long time....

[mike4045]

I backed the crimp off, but never got any accuracy out of them. My glock's never liked them, had slightly better results out of my STI's. I have gone to jacketed and black bullets with no problems.

[mlmiller1]

I used to be a fan of West Coast when all I shot was 9mm. I probably bought for myself 80k or so. Then I bought a 40 cal glock. WHEWEEEE, no grouping, tumbling bullets-- here they were. Very sad. Bad thing is I had bought 8k. I found a guy that would buy them. I told him what I had been having happen but he wanted them anyway. I sold them at a very cheap price just to recoup part of my money! I started shooting Precision bullets & the trouble went away.

I will defend their name changes, though. Jim sold the company to a guy & he ran the quality into the ground. That is about the time I bought those 40s. He messed things up so much & evidently didn't pay Jim for the company so they wound up getting it all back. There were name problems then because of how the guy had bought the co. & all that. Anyway, since they bought it back, I haven't bought any of their bullets to try out. The price seems kind of high, now. It is a shame because I used to enjoy visiting with Angela She is a cutie but I can't buy high priced, possibly tumbling, inaccurate bullets just because the owner's daughter is cute.

YMMV

MLM

[steel1212]

I've used those bullets and they are freaking terrible. All the horrer stories you hear about plated bullets I had with those: dents from not enough lead under the plate, plate coming off, inconsistent sizing, etc, etc. Titegroup and 180s is pretty standard so I don't think its that. Get you some good jacketed bullets with the same load and try again. If you want to go cheaper try some GOOD lead bullets and a different powder.