S&W Performance Center

[kframe_mike]

I was told several years ago why the factory trigger jobs from all the revo's from S&W are very heavy, and It has to do with Massachusetts (I can't spell for s*&^) state laws. I had to do a little searching but here it is

"However, in addition, the Attorney General requires that:

Guns sold by dealers must have mechanisms that preclude an average five year old from operating the handgun, such as requiring multiple motions or a ten pound trigger pull;"

Since the guns are made in that great crappola state, we get crappola triggers. Basically, S&W sends the revo's out with the parts to do your own trigger job, or have it sent out. I strongly beleive that about $500 should be knocked off the retail price.

Smith could comply with this by just putting heavier springs in them though.I think that the real problem is that nobody there knows how to fit the forged internals anymore.It looks like they're doing the MIM parts so well,that they're pretty much a drop in deal.That no worky with the old school stuff.Most of the standard line MIM guns I've tried/own are actually pretty decent out of the box.-Mike

[Rick B]

I have a half dozen or so PC revolvers and have found that by replacing a few parts and lots of fitting they can be made into pretty decent guns

Steve

It seems to me then, based on your example, they should then be termed "almost ready to work center" guns. When you put the word Performance in the title, that is what it should be capable of right out of the box.

Trust me, I'm a S&W fan! But this is the perfect example of exactly what is wrong with American products these days. Many skilled laborers, most of whom are earning a better than decent wage, just don't care if they put out crap products. The product goes out, they get paid, big deal kinda attitude. It's hard to convince folks to give up foreign and buy domestic with examples of high priced shoddy workmanship like this.

I believe you need to look at management. If the workers have a quota to meet and there is a lack of quality control, the buck would stop with S&W not labor.

[Carmoney]

I think that the real problem is that nobody there knows how to fit the forged internals anymore.It looks like they're doing the MIM parts so well,that they're pretty much a drop in deal.That no worky with the old school stuff.Most of the standard line MIM guns I've tried/own are actually pretty decent out of the box.

Absolutely, Mike. I completely agree.

[cheetahs]

Tom Kelly is not over the Performance Center any more. He has not been the head person for over a year. Good luck with Jim Rae. I would call Jim Dalton. (800) 331-0852 Ext.3222. I hope that number is still good. ---JWB

Jim Dalton has been moved over to the M&P AR line.

Also to add

I have been smithing these actions for some time and PC in my opinion just means Pre-Cheetah!

I encourage shooters to buy production guns and put the other 250$ into action work.

I would like to say that I recently worked on several SSR 686s and these were found to be some well assembled guns

with good fitting parts

the best I've seen in over 200 guns worked.

I'm sure S&W will see the light if enough shooters address this issue.

That' just my opinion....

Gary

[CSEMARTIN]

Comments removed to be more politically correct.

Edited July 8, 2009 by CSEMARTIN

[Peakbagr]

I have a Smith 952. Its S&W's top end semiauto, 9mm target gun. Regardless of load (full power or lighter handload), the slide would not lock back on the last round. The decocker/safety, on the opposite side of the gun was exposed and razor sharp. Sharp enough to have sliced my fingers when racking the slide during a match.

After a year of frustration, customer service asked me to send it back. I rec'd a call from a very sheepish gunsmith at the PC about a week later. The slide on a 9mm is much narrower than the slide on a .45auto, but that didn't stop the PC from putting a .45 decocker on my 9mm slide when the gun was built, and fitting the incorrect slide stop as well.

Everyone can make a mistake, but how does something like that happen on any gun? Especially a PC that is supposed to be test fired for function and grouping? And one that is costly as a 952?

I have a bunch of Smith guns, like them all, but even though they made it right, this should never have happened.

[AultGM]

I have had nothing but GREAT Service from the Performance Center Staff ... THANK YOU Smith & Wesson !!!

[Carmoney]

I have had nothing but GREAT Service from the Performance Center Staff ... THANK YOU Smith & Wesson !!!

Just out of curiosity, what kind of service have you received from the PC staff?

[Tom E]

I'm not impressed at all by the fitting/function of the PC guns. But, the only work I've had done by them, a barrel/yoke/cylinder install on a 627, they did well.

[jasond]

I'm kind of annoyed with them right now.

A few months ago, I sent them my three year old 627 with a laundry list of defects, most of which they fixed to my satisfaction. One problem was that the overtravel stop on the trigger was nowhere near touching the frame, and the trigger had way too much overtravel. They put in a new hammer, still too much overtravel, and a rough pull as well. I popped the hood last week, and the trigger pivot pin was broken off in the frame. I've already sent it off to them.

I assume they're pressed in? Will they have to replace the frame?

[jasond]

Oh yeah, they also were to relieve the frame where the hammer was hitting it, near the firing pin. The grinder slipped, and marked the outside of the frame.

They did turn it around very quickly, and paid shipping both ways. Can't beat that.

[SauconValley Shooter]

Good Afternoon,

To answer Carmoney's original question, I believe that Tony Miele runs the Performance Center.

To chime in with everybody else, I have HAD to work on every gun I own from S&W. I have some older and some newer basic revolvers, a JM 625, a couple 32x series guns, and PC guns, all required some work. In fact, a group of us wanted to take our JM 625s up to Jerry at a match and ask him what he thought of the trigger pull.

I did leave two PC 646s at S&W while shooting the IDPA Indoors Nationals there earlier this year, and they did a great job. I asked to have the bead blast finish on both guns re-applied due to holster wear. There were other items such as pitting in one firing pin bushing, replacing screws, checking timing. When I received the guns back they looked brand new. I swear that they installed new cylinders, new extractor rods and all new screws, and I am certain that they replaced the sights.

From whom can you buy a competition ready revolver right out of the box?

Ken

[CJDOUBLETAP]

From whom can you buy a competition ready revolver right out of the box?

Ken

No one that I've heard of.

[shooterdoc]

From whom can you buy a competition ready revolver right out of the box?

Ken

No one that I've heard of.

Carmoney

[Carmoney]

To answer Carmoney's original question, I believe that Tony Miele runs the Performance Center.

I confirmed today with the factory that Tony Miele is currently in charge of the Performance Center. I'm sending the defective trigger out today, along with a polite letter explaining the situation. We will see what kind of response S&W provides.

[Carmoney]

Update: I received a replacement trigger in a small padded envelope with no further response.

Unfortunately, today I had to send Mr. Miele another letter:

You may recall I wrote you last month regarding a grossly defective trigger that had been installed on a new 627-5 P.C. revolver that one of my customers won at the IRC. I appreciate the replacement part I received shortly thereafter.

Yesterday I opened a brand new 627-4 .38 Super revolver (serial number CMUxxxx) that I recently received from Bangers USA, to find a very poor yoke/cylinder fit and an unacceptable degree of binding in the cylinder rotation. Upon further inspection, I found a 3/8" hairline crack in the yoke barrel, extending forward from the bearing end of the yoke. The crack extends all the way through the yoke barrel, and is visible from the inside.

I contacted customer service and arranged for a shipping label to return the gun.

I am disturbed by the lack of quality control that seems to be prevailing in the S&W Performance Center right now, and would appreciate any response you might be able to supply.

On top of that, Customer Service was unable to send me a shipping label, because "the machine that makes the labels is down, and we're working on it, but it will be next week before you get a label." Fortunately, this is not a gun ordered for a customer, but an extra 627-4 I bought to obtain a slight break on shipping costs from Bangers, so this delay is more of an annoyance than a true problem.

I'm pretty displeased with the so-called "Performance Center" right now. I'll let you all know if I receive a response from its director.

[SauconValley Shooter]

Good Afternoon,

In the "38 Supers are here" thread, I listed the problems I found with my new 627-4. I contacted S&W, and a customer service rep emailed me asking to confirm the address to send my return label and to confirm the serial number.

I have not received the label and assumed that they forgot, but perhaps my label is also waiting for the printer to be repaired. It would have been nice to be informed.

Ken

[festus1]

Update: I received a replacement trigger in a small padded envelope with no further response.

Unfortunately, today I had to send Mr. Miele another letter:

You may recall I wrote you last month regarding a grossly defective trigger that had been installed on a new 627-5 P.C. revolver that one of my customers won at the IRC. I appreciate the replacement part I received shortly thereafter.

Yesterday I opened a brand new 627-4 .38 Super revolver (serial number CMUxxxx) that I recently received from Bangers USA, to find a very poor yoke/cylinder fit and an unacceptable degree of binding in the cylinder rotation. Upon further inspection, I found a 3/8" hairline crack in the yoke barrel, extending forward from the bearing end of the yoke. The crack extends all the way through the yoke barrel, and is visible from the inside.

I contacted customer service and arranged for a shipping label to return the gun.

I am disturbed by the lack of quality control that seems to be prevailing in the S&W Performance Center right now, and would appreciate any response you might be able to supply.

On top of that, Customer Service was unable to send me a shipping label, because "the machine that makes the labels is down, and we're working on it, but it will be next week before you get a label." Fortunately, this is not a gun ordered for a customer, but an extra 627-4 I bought to obtain a slight break on shipping costs from Bangers, so this delay is more of an annoyance than a true problem.

I'm pretty displeased with the so-called "Performance Center" right now. I'll let you all know if I receive a response from its director.

Mike, S&W can send you a shipping label by email. They did this for me earlier this summer. Twice. For the same gun. A PC gun no less. Chris

[Carmoney]

Mike, S&W can send you a shipping label by email. They did this for me earlier this summer. Twice. For the same gun. A PC gun no less. Chris

Chris, I specifically asked them to email me a shipping label. They said they couldn't do anything with labels until next week when the "machine" is fixed. Which sounds like total bullcrap to me. So I asked if I shipped the gun in myself, would they reimburse me the cost of shipping, and they said no, I would need to wait for a label. Which sounded like even more bullcrap.

[sci]

I currently have 2 issuies ongoing with smith and wesson a parts order that was wrong that i shipped back and am waithing on the correct parts and a 617 that was sent in for repairs when i contacted them last week to check status i was told they are on a 2 week shut down so not much would be getting done untill next week

good luck

Steve

[Gregg K]

Mike

Did the yoke look anything like this one? This was in a 625JM

[kframe_mike]

OK,when I see stuff like this,my first thought is that these folks are getting their parts bins mixed up.I'm thinking that they're getting bins of rejected parts slipped in there somehow,and nobody putting them together now knows the difference.If its not a picture perfect CNC/MIM part,they're lost!On a more positive note,my new CNC/MIM 610 is pretty sweet.-Mike

[Carmoney]

Mike

Did the yoke look anything like this one? This was in a 625JM

Mine's a little more subtle than that abortion, but yes!

[Middle Man]

FWIW: As mentioned above, S&W is in the midst of their annual maintenance shut down and a majority of the employees have been out on vacation since August 1st. Probably including the ones that email return labels. The only production line running is involved with M&P15-22's. They start back up full production, with all hands on deck, Monday, 17 August.

[jasond]

I got mine back after the second attempt at repairing it, and they'd beadblasted the chambers while refinishing it. It's not extracting so well. I'm not sending it back for fear of what will happen next!