The Start

[Dan Bone]

If you're the shooter, you're in the box, loaded and ready... the R.O. "shooters ready" ... you hear him hit the delayed timer button... "standby".... You know within 3 seconds it'll go off. Then you realize you forgot to put on your ears..... or you forgot to load the gun..... can you stop? You throw your hands up to say stop... but the buzzer goes off. Do you have to proceed with the start or can you stop?

We had a rather heated discussion on this..... figured I'd throw it out here and see what we get.

[uscbigdawg]

Hi Dan,

Good question. I'll attempt to answer.

"Load and make ready"

- Load the gun, etc., etc. RO's responsibilities include you putting your hearing protection. They are not supposed to start you without eyes and ears

"Are you ready?"

- This is a question. "Shooter ready," doesn't exist and is an improper range command. The shooter has prepped all of his/her gear and has assumed a semi-start position. The RO again has verified that the stage is ready to shoot and the competitor is ready as well. There is no acknowledgment required unless you are not ready. To which you are to respond, "not ready" or the like.

"Standby"

- Whether you hear the release of the delay or not is of no mind. In this case, the audible signal is the start. If you are not ready, you can stop, so long as it is before time starts.

My read is that as long as you stopped prior to the start signal, you're alright. The rulebook might say differently, but I'll tell you now that if you're at Nationals and John Amidon himself is RO'ing you, if the guy with the loaded gun wants to stop and the timer has started, you'll get a stop.

From an accessing of blame standpoint, if you didn't have ears on, the "Are you ready?" should have never been given. Remember if you can be given a re-shoot for your ears falling off during a stage, then you should be required (and you are) to start with them on.

Just my two cents.

Rich

[TheQuietMan]

The Good Book reads...after the shooter indicates to the RO that he is ready, the RO goes to Stand By and off we go.

However, if you are at a friendly match, as I was, I was an RO who reminded the shooter to put a mag in his gun after he said that he was ready. He just had one round in the chamber. I did not go to Stand By. Once the buzzer goes.......it's showtime. Mandatory reload on the draw? Do it. Go, go, go or take a DNF.

[Loves2Shoot]

THere is no DNF anymore.

[Matthew_Mink]

My first ever Nationals event I did something similar. It was FGN 2002 on the stage with the little car cutout. The buzzer went off, I drew and fired two shots, winced, then took my finger out of the trigger guard and asked the RO if I could stop. He asked why, I responded no ears. He said stop, unload and show clear, then apologized. There was no apology needed, it was my fault. I got my ears, reloaded my mags and tried it again.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

The following rules in the current (14th Edition, September 2002 edition) IPSC rulebook should answer your question:

5.4.2 Host organizations may require the use of such protection while on the range premises. In this event, Range Officials shall make every effort to ensure that all officials, spectators and competitors are wearing appropriate protection. If an official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced their eye or ear protection during a course of fire or has commenced a course of fire without them the official shall immediately stop the competitor who shall be required to re shoot the course of fire after the protective devices have been restored.

A competitor who loses eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or commences a course of fire without them, shall be entitled to stop, point their firearm in a safe direction and indicate the problem to the official, in which case the provisions of the previous paragraph shall apply.

5.4.3 Any attempts to gain a competitive advantage by removing the safety glasses or ear protectors after the course of fire has commenced shall be considered unsportsmanlike conduct (see rule 10.4.4).

The above rules have been further refined in the January 2004 IPSC rulebook as follows:

5.4.3 If a Range Official notices that a competitor has lost or displaced their eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or has commenced a course of fire without them, the Range Official must immediately stop the competitor who will be required to reshoot the course of fire after the protective devices have been restored.

5.4.4 A competitor who inadvertently loses eye or ear protection during a course of fire, or commences a course of fire without them, is entitled to stop, point their firearm in a safe direction and indicate the problem to the official, in which case the provisions of the previous rule will apply.

5.4.5 Any attempt to gain a competitive advantage by removing eye and/or ear protection during a course of fire will be considered unsportsmanlike conduct (see Rule 10.6.3).

In other words, if it's an honest mistake, you can stop at anytime and get a reshoot.

Hope this helps.

[Garfield]

However, if you are at a friendly match, as I was, I was an RO who reminded the shooter to put a mag in his gun after he said that he was ready.

I was taught never to do this as an RO, no matter how much you wanted to help the shooter.

[Garfield]

Hope this helps.

No it doesn't

At least, not to me trying to find out "the" answer to "the" original question. I do understand the ruels about hearing protection and so, but I still miss an answer about the shooter wanting to stop <for whatever "not ready" reason> before the start signal has been given ?

[Skywalker]

In replying to the original question (the protections issue has already been exhaustively cleared by Vince), I'd say you won't find it specifically written in the rules.

I can only guess that it can be desumed by some reverse engineering of rules 8.3.2, 8.3.3 and 8.3.4: I mean, rule 8.3.2 makes provision for the competitor to stop the start sequence for whatever reason crosses his mind, while following rules don't make any provision for this.

The only amendment has been made for eye and hearing protections in rule 5.4.2.

Thus, according to an ancient law principle "lex, quod dixit voluit, quod noluit tacuit" (what law wants to say it says, what it doesn't want to say it falls silent), I'd assume after confirming you are ready you are allowed to stop at any time (and get a new start) only for protections issues.

[ErikW]

At first glance, this seems easy... the competitor should do one or all of the following:

- Shout "Not Ready!"

- Move out of the start position

- Place hand(s) on the gun or equipment

...any one of which should prevent the R.O. from continuing with the start signal. However, it's not so clear in the USPSA rulebook (14th edition 2001).

- 8.3.2 says "Not Ready" should come at the "Are You Ready?" command

- 10.1.4.7 says movement after the "Standby" command might deserve a procedural penalty

[Skywalker]

Erik,

according to the IPSC rulebook, you get a procedural if you move towards equipment (and maybe touch your handgun/equipment), or move to a more advantageous position, after the standby command, and there is no re-start option.

On the other hand, if you are actually touching your gun/equipment before the stand-by command, the RO is not allowed to start you, thus you have reached your goal of not getting started.

[Detlef]

but the real question then is, can you still do something AFTER the standby command to stop the sequence? Letting common sense rule, shouting "Not ready" should be enough. Then there's the option of simply not reacting at all to the start beep, pretending you didn't hear it. You should be given a new start then...

--Detlef

[lynn jones]

i believe you can stop at any time up until the buzzer sounds. after the buzzer sounds, it's your time. except if you forgot hearing or eye protection.

lynn

[DBChaffin]

Just to stir the pot some more, and because I really curious about this:

We had a stage at our 2002 Section Match were the shooter started with his hands holding swinging doors together. They were spring loaded. On the buzzer the shooter released them and they swang open. The shooter then drew and shot the stage. One shooter in the whole match had a problem after he assumed the start position. I said, "Are you ready?" and received no response. I said "Standby" and paused before hitting the button. Right as I was about to push the button, one of the doors slipped from the shooters hand. I don't know if it was reaction or I was so close to pushing it but I hit the button after the door had swung open. The shooter knew he had done wrong and turned to look over his shoulder with a questioning look on his face. He did not draw or procede through the stage. Although it may have been a mistake, I told him to stop, stand easy, then allowed him to restart. Here are my thoughts. I guess IF he had taken off through the stage, it would have been a procedural for creeping before the buzzer. By not starting, what would I have written down? 0.0 time? I felt I made the right decision at the time, although another shooter from another squad that was watching did complain (I was told later). I was just attempting to give the same, consistent start position for all competitors.

Fast forward to this year's state match. I have a stage where the gun starts loaded downrange on a table. The competitor is in "the shower" and on the buzzer must procede through the shower curtain to the gun. I had one competitor, the first of the whole match I think, slip and fall AFTER the buzzer as he went to leave the shower. He jumped up and ran to his gun and finished the stage. No questions asked, no problems. HOWEVER, what should an RO do if he gets up slowly, looks at the RO and asks for a restart? The buzzer went off, he didn't do anything wrong before the buzzer. I tend to be in agreement with Lynn. He fell after the buzzer, and the RO should state, "If you are finished, unload and show clear". I'd hate to do that to someone, but they fell while on "their time". Very similar to if they fell with a gun in the middle of the stage. There is a difference that no shots have been fired yet however. . . Thankfully this competitor was a great sport and didn't even bring it up.

Thoughts on any of this? Thanks.

[Vince Pinto]

Hi guys,

Apart from the "Ear or Eye Protection" issue I already covered in my first response, if a competitor is not ready prior to the Start Signal, he can still yell "Not ready" and no harm is done.

However once the "Start Signal" is made and the competitor reacts, the meter is running and the competitor cannot get a reshoot unless Eye or Ear protection is missing. Of course if, as Detlef suggests, you don't move a muscle after the Start Signal, you also qualify for a re-start.

DBChaffin - under the circumstances you describe, you did the right thing by re-starting the competitor at your 2002 Section Match. However in respect of the "Shower Stage", since the competitor fell after the Start Signal, the meter is running and he should not get a reshoot or re-start.

Ya done good - twice!

[uscbigdawg]

I think the original issue has been resolved that you should have been issued a re-shoot and you can stop prior to the start signal.

DBChaffin - As Vince said, you did absolutely everything right in both cases.

Rich

[mcoliver]

Then there's the option of simply not reacting at all to the start beep, pretending you didn't hear it.

Will that compound the issue of not having hearing protection when even without it you still don't hear the buzzer?

[mactiger]

I agree with Vince. In fact, this question came up at a level one seminar I taught this weekend. The competitor can "stop" or refuse to start if some problem arises between the command "Are you ready", and the start signal. In the event that the competitor does not start at the start signal, it's simply a restart.

Conversely, the RO can stop the shooter for anything, and either issue a restart, or a reshoot, if the competitor had begun firing when the problem arose. The rules are clear on loss or absence of eye and hearing protection, but not so clear on any other issues around the start signal. This is an area where the RO's judgement comes into play.

[Vince Pinto]

Troy,

One time I had a competitor on the line and, when I hit the start signal, he drew his gun and took two paces forward when suddenly a goat appeared out of nowhere and ran onto the back of the range!

The competitor froze, he looked at me, then we both burst out laughing. Needless to say, I unloaded him, chased the damn goat away, then restarted him. No harm, no foul and we had another good laugh at the bar later that day.

And yes, we need to give the RO some flexibility in the rules to deal with crazy situations like this

[Flexmoney]

ahhh...the old "unleash the goat on your competition trick".

That is why I shoot hollow points, at Major.

(goats are tough)

[Hungry Beagle]

I'm glad that the general concensus seems to be that if a shooter pulls his (or her) hands away from start position screaming "NOTREADYNOTREADYNOTREADY" we wouldn't start the timer and assess penalties for creeping...

However, what if a shooter did that just prior to the buzzer going off. That is, you as the RO are unable to stop the buzzer because you've pressed it at the instant that they're proclaiming their lack of readiness. Would you still stop them then?

Assuming you woud plan to, but are a bit slow to issue the commands, and the shooter starts thinking that you're not going to allow them to restart. What if they go tearing off downrange to shoot their course of fire? Would I be justified in stopping them after the first couple of shots to allow them to restart?

[Vince Pinto]

Beagle,

If a competitor reacts after the start signal (e.g. moves his arms or legs), then the meter is running and he's not entitled to a restart. The relevant rules in the IPSC Handgun Rules - January 2004 Edition are:

8.3.4 "Start Signal" – The signal for the competitor to begin their attempt at the course of fire. If a competitor fails to react to a start signal, for any reason, the Range Officer will confirm that the competitor is ready to attempt the course of fire, and will resume the range commands from "Are You Ready?"

(The above covers cases where the competitor does not hear the start signal and where the competitor decides after issuance of the ""Standby" signal that something is amiss)

8.6.3 In the event that inadvertent contact from the Range Officer or another external influence has, in the opinion of the Range Officer, interfered with the competitor during a course of fire, the Range Officer may offer the competitor a reshoot of the course of fire. The competitor must accept or decline the offer prior to seeing either the time or the score from the initial attempt. However in the event that the competitor commits a safety infraction during any such interference, the provisions of Section 10.3 may still apply.

("Another external influence" includes distractions caused by hairy goats who live dangerously!)

9.10.3 A competitor who reacts to a start signal but, for any reason, does not continue their attempt at the course of fire and fails to have an official time recorded on the timing device operated by the Range Officer, will be given a zero time and zero score for that course of fire.

(This is the cruncher. Once you react to the "Start Signal", the meter is running. For example, if you fluff your draw, you don't get to try it again).

[mactiger]

Good explanation, Vince. Indeed, animals on the range are a problem. At PASA, in Barry, IL, and at my home club, we've stopped for: geese, dogs, deer, and an errant cameraman coming over the backstop. (He wanted to get a good video of one of the shooters. ) Haven't seen any goats, though. And BDH, fish don't count.

Bottom line, guys, if the shooter says he's not ready, prior to, or just at the start signal, then he's not ready, period.

[RHall]

The way I see it is if the shooter never says yes I am ready or makes it clear that they are ready the RO should not say anything, start the buzzer or go to standby. When the RO says "shooter ready" I normally take a few seconds to think things through then say yes I am ready. I have never seen this happen before, sounds to me like an impatient RO.

RH

[Vince Pinto]

RH,

There's no requirement for a competitor to actually say "I'm ready" but, sadly, I've been to matches where an RO expects such an answer but the competitor became annoyed because having to actually reply is distracting and interferes with their "zen".

On the other hand, just last week I was at a major match and I saw one RO issue the "Start Signal" within 1/1000th of a nanosecond after saying "Standby". In fact, it sounded like "Stand Byyyyyyyyyy (beep) yyyyy". Not good and I had a quiet word with him.

I guess it all boils down to "RO Awareness" - each competitor is a bit different to the next, and competitor body language is very revealing if you focus on the competitor and observe.

This might mean only releasing the "Start Signal" after his final sigh, nose wiggle etc. but I'll do whatever it takes under the rules to give the competitor a fair shake.