Adams Arms Ozark 3 Gun National Championship

[abn-rgr]

How many people used the poker chip for the penalty reduction?

Im not positive, but I think at least 20.

[Big Bear]

The Scores are posted

Please go to the bottom of the linked page. http://www.forconquest.com/MatchInfo.html to view them.

I would like to thank the sponsors again for all their support.

I would like to thank my staff who worked very hard to make the match a success.

And, most importantly, I would like to thank all the competitors for their participation and all the kind things you have said. It has been our pleasure to bring you this event. I look forward to next year with great expectation. Next year will be bigger and better.

Kirk

See ya at the range.

[dvc40jim]

Well it might be me cause I'm not real sharp bout computers but I don't see the results.

Just the same.... Good job with it all. COPS has been informed how impressed I was along with the other shooters. It would not have been the same match at the COPS range by any stretch of the imagination.

We are in for next year as a sponsor again and can't hardly wait.

[RufDog]

To find the results go to the bottom of the page below the sponsors & on the left. It was great having you @ the match Jim.

-Damon

[spd522]

How many people used the poker chip for the penalty reduction?

Im not positive, but I think at least 20.

I should have used it...........cost me dearly at the table.

Craig

[cold]

Here is the results link

http://www.forconquest.com/files/Finals.pdf

[barrysuperhawk]

A few points to ponder for next year-

*Although the ROs werent as good to look @ as the stats ladies Chad did have his eye on Gin & Barry (so watch out if you plan to come back next year)

Hey now, that was uncalled for... er, wait...wat?

The RAW Youtube videos - and I do mean RAW... completely unedited POV video - Be nice I was still learning to work the camera...

Edited September 30, 2009 by barrysuperhawk

[jmark308]

Well, for a change of pace, here are some comments that are somewhat less laudatory. First, I along with everyone else appreciate the work that goes into putting on a match of this size. My club hosted the Area 3 match for the past two years, so I have a feel for what that takes. Thanks!

On the negative side – arrived at the registration site 15 minutes after the published start time, no one there, well that doesn't create the best first impression. OK, will drive out to the range and check it out (oops, no directions to the range, no maps at the hotel desk, nor were gps coordinates ever posted, even after someone suggested that might be a good idea).

Safety: kids riding ATVs through the parking area and out toward the active ranges. Some with no helmets. Not my kids, but I do like kids and wouldn't want to see them injured. Stage one was extremely hazardous on Saturday. Getting there was a challenge, fell once myself. The actual stage was almost as bad. I am not a big fan of running/moving rapidly on slick footing with a loaded weapon in my hands.

Stage eight was a total goat rope. My squad spent four hours total waiting for fixes, waiting for transportation, waiting for a second squad to do a walk-through (after they stood there and watched us walk-through and shoot the stage). One of our squad members had a bloodied face after getting a branch in the face on the ride to the stage.

Very limited parking for stages 2, 3, and 6. A little dozer work would have made a big difference.

Admittedly, this was my first match in natural terrain, but I am unconvinced that shooting gray targets (5x5s) in the shade with the sun in your eyes is a measure of one's shooting skills.

On the plus side, the awards ceremony was well organized and on time.

The highlight of the match from my perspective was the fact that the high Military shooter was RETIRED Air Force!

There! I feel better now.

[RufDog]

Sir,

I am sorry to hear you didnt have a good match experience. We do appreciate the understanding of what goes into setting up a match. Nobody likes shooting in less than favorable conditions & we certainly didnt ask for additional precipitation. These natural terrain matches are vastly different from anything you will find with IPSC/USPSA pistol match. A 3-Gun match @ a groomed facility such as CMMG may be more of what you are looking for.

Edited September 30, 2009 by RufDog

[Jesse Tischauser]

Well, for a change of pace, here are some comments that are somewhat less laudatory. First, I along with everyone else appreciate the work that goes into putting on a match of this size. My club hosted the Area 3 match for the past two years, so I have a feel for what that takes. Thanks!

On the negative side – arrived at the registration site 15 minutes after the published start time, no one there, well that doesn't create the best first impression. OK, will drive out to the range and check it out (oops, no directions to the range, no maps at the hotel desk, nor were gps coordinates ever posted, even after someone suggested that might be a good idea).

Safety: kids riding ATVs through the parking area and out toward the active ranges. Some with no helmets. Not my kids, but I do like kids and wouldn't want to see them injured. Stage one was extremely hazardous on Saturday. Getting there was a challenge, fell once myself. The actual stage was almost as bad. I am not a big fan of running/moving rapidly on slick footing with a loaded weapon in my hands.

Stage eight was a total goat rope. My squad spent four hours total waiting for fixes, waiting for transportation, waiting for a second squad to do a walk-through (after they stood there and watched us walk-through and shoot the stage). One of our squad members had a bloodied face after getting a branch in the face on the ride to the stage.

Very limited parking for stages 2, 3, and 6. A little dozer work would have made a big difference.

Admittedly, this was my first match in natural terrain, but I am unconvinced that shooting gray targets (5x5s) in the shade with the sun in your eyes is a measure of one's shooting skills.

On the plus side, the awards ceremony was well organized and on time.

The highlight of the match from my perspective was the fact that the high Military shooter was RETIRED Air Force!

There! I feel better now.

I too thought the match was great and I will be back next year for sure but these are the things I think could be improved upon next year.

I agree that the directions could have been better. I actually got lost getting out there the first day too.

I too could have done without riding in the goat. I would have been just as happy in my own truck. Now if we would have done a river crossing in it I would be all for that. I guess as someone that has spent plenty of time in crappy military trucks there isn't too much fun I can have in one anymore.

The 5x5 plates need paint next year and bars welded on them to stop them from spinning. I personally had 2 plates spin and not fall which cost me about 30 seconds of time with penalties added. We also had two shooters in our squad looking for one plate on the left on stage 2 for 5-10 seconds because of the light conditions early Satuday morning where tough. I would rather see us be able to see them easily and shoot them at 40 yds than not be able to find them and shoot them at 10 yds.

My last suggestion would be to make the match a two day event next year. We shot an extra stage on Friday for a total of 5 stages the first day of shooting and we were done at 5:00-5:30ish. We showed up at 10:45 on Satruday and didn't start shooting until 11:00-11:15ish and finished our 3 remaining stages by 3:00-3:30ish. I actually left Saturday night to get a jump on the 6 hour drive back to OKC. I would have liked to stay for the awards if they would have been Saturday night or Sunday morning. I understand that there where shooters that just shot on Saturday and Sunday. If that option would have been available I might have choosen it instead to save a day of away from home time.

Please don't take my comments as harsh as they are not meant to be as such. I just thought I would let you know what our squad saw while shooting a great match.

[RufDog]

jtischauser & everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts. We are reading and considering everything in order to do our best again next year. So, lets hear it but understand we cant control the weather.

Thanks for your time-

-Damon

[Jesse Tischauser]

jtischauser & everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to give us your thoughts. We are reading and considering everything in order to do our best again next year. So, lets hear it but understand we cant control the weather.

Thanks for your time-

-Damon

I actually liked playing in the mud. It made it much easier to slide into that bunker on stage 5

[rz317]

As far as the 5x5 plates go, I disagree about the paint.

From an efficiency point of view, painting the plates adds another step, and if you think handling the lead covered plates during reset is nasty, adding sticky, semi-dry spray paint to the mix makes the situation even nastier. Leaving the plates unpainted takes out the variable having to worry about them consistently looking the same for everyone.

This sport has martial roots and combat themed. That doesn’t mean that it is or should be just like real life combat situations, but I mean, come on... most if not all of us are using rifles built on battle rifle platforms, combat-style handguns, etc. The plates represent the "bad guys". The unpainted plates are harder to find in a natural setting, vs. painted plates in a square bay, which I think that is a good thing. Unpainted plates better represent this, because they are more camouflaged. The bad guys wouldn't be dressed in some color which obviously contrasted the environment, so you'll be able to better identify and neutralize them. Just like the brown paper targets are tougher to see in the woods than in a wide open bay. Natural terrain offers several challenges to the sport, which I welcome because they create a more meaningful and challenging shooting environment. Footing isn't always as ideal as pressed gravel in a bay, which is the whole point, to trudge along and adapt to the environment. I for one always prefer natural terrain over bays.

As far as the plates needing additional welding, I've personally heard many shooters complain about this at several matches. I have never seen a plate spin if the shooter made a solid shot, unless he/she was using too light of a load or not enough choke. I don't think that there needs to be a lip on the back, that would make it too easy to knock the plates off. What has worked to minimize the spin issue at our local club matches is making the base and stand narrower. If a 5x5 plate has a 2.5x2.5 base on a 2.5x2.5 stand, then there's little chance of it spinning, yet it has enough room to move on the stand and not fall if the shooter didn't put enough pattern on it.

[barrysuperhawk]

Sir,

I am sorry to hear you didnt have a good match experience. We do appreciate the understanding of what goes into setting up a match. Nobody likes shooting in less than favorable conditions & we certainly didnt ask for additional precipitation. These natural terrain matches are vastly different from anything you will find with IPSC/USPSA pistol match. A 3-Gun match @ a groomed facility such as CMMG may be more of what you are looking for.

Actually, CMMG has had all of the above mentioned issues too, they had a ton of rain, people on ATV's tearing about, Muddy ass forest stages where you had to run on slick nasty ground with a loaded gun, confusion about the range location and where registration was to be held AND those same little 5x5 bastards that nobody liked when they spun.... and so on. Given all of the challenges faced by the staff and the shooters, this match went off comparatively without a hitch. Yeah the rain made everything nasty, and yeah, a few GAMERS screwed up stage 8 for everyone else, and yeah, in the middle of Missourri, there were redneck kids ridin around on ATV's... to all of that I say BIG DEAL.

Bottom line, in my own opinion, is 3 gun is not a sport for pansies, if you don't come away bleeding from at least one stage, you aren't serious enough. One thing I LIKE about 3 gun is there are often physical challenges that one must overcome in addition to merely shooting.

Edited September 30, 2009 by barrysuperhawk

[rz317]

Bottom line, in my own opinion, is 3 gun is not a sport for pansies, if you don't come away bleeding from at least one stage, you aren't serious enough. One thing I LIKE about 3 gun is there are often physical challenges that one must overcome in addition to merely shooting.

+1

Edited September 30, 2009 by 00bullitt

[Jesse Tischauser]

As far as the 5x5 plates go, I disagree about the paint.

From an efficiency point of view, painting the plates adds another step, and if you think handling the lead covered plates during reset is nasty, adding sticky, semi-dry spray paint to the mix makes the situation even nastier. Leaving the plates unpainted takes out the variable having to worry about them consistently looking the same for everyone.

This sport has martial roots and combat themed. That doesn’t mean that it is or should be just like real life combat situations, but I mean, come on... most if not all of us are using rifles built on battle rifle platforms, combat-style handguns, etc. The plates represent the "bad guys". The unpainted plates are harder to find in a natural setting, vs. painted plates in a square bay, which I think that is a good thing. Unpainted plates better represent this, because they are more camouflaged. The bad guys wouldn't be dressed in some color which obviously contrasted the environment, so you'll be able to better identify and neutralize them. Just like the brown paper targets are tougher to see in the woods than in a wide open bay. Natural terrain offers several challenges to the sport, which I welcome because they create a more meaningful and challenging shooting environment. Footing isn't always as ideal as pressed gravel in a bay, which is the whole point, to trudge along and adapt to the environment. I for one always prefer natural terrain over bays.

As far as the plates needing additional welding, I've personally heard many shooters complain about this at several matches. I have never seen a plate spin if the shooter made a solid shot, unless he/she was using too light of a load or not enough choke. I don't think that there needs to be a lip on the back, that would make it too easy to knock the plates off. What has worked to minimize the spin issue at our local club matches is making the base and stand narrower. If a 5x5 plate has a 2.5x2.5 base on a 2.5x2.5 stand, then there's little chance of it spinning, yet it has enough room to move on the stand and not fall if the shooter didn't put enough pattern on it.

Ryan,

Well said from the guy that got 3rd place in Tac Optic. Why would you want to make any changes at all?

The painted plates would make it slower and messier but we are playing a game not training for combat or LE. So why not make the game about shooting not about target identification?

In regards to the spinning plates. I have no doubt that I was not hitting the plates as well as I could have been. Especially with my pistol! I think I could hear you all laughing after ever shot was for fired. I don;t have a problem at all with a plate that spins and needs another shot or two but when you simply can't knock it off becauseof fault lines limiting your lateral movement then I have a problem.

I was using WWB 9mm and a Walmart 8 shot with a Modified choke so it wasn't light loads or loose patterns that caused those plates to spin. Think of it this way. Say on stage 10 when there were 2 or 3 chances at shooting a double and you shot for the double but spun one or both plates sideways and could not knock them off You would lose 10-20 penalty seconds plus the time it took you to shoot. You gotta fix the plates.

[abn-rgr]

and yeah, in the middle of Missourri, there were redneck kids ridin around on ATV's... to all of that I say BIG DEAL.

Hey I resemble that remark!!!

[abn-rgr]

As far as the 5x5 plates go, I disagree about the paint.

From an efficiency point of view, painting the plates adds another step, and if you think handling the lead covered plates during reset is nasty, adding sticky, semi-dry spray paint to the mix makes the situation even nastier. Leaving the plates unpainted takes out the variable having to worry about them consistently looking the same for everyone.

This sport has martial roots and combat themed. That doesn't mean that it is or should be just like real life combat situations, but I mean, come on... most if not all of us are using rifles built on battle rifle platforms, combat-style handguns, etc. The plates represent the "bad guys". The unpainted plates are harder to find in a natural setting, vs. painted plates in a square bay, which I think that is a good thing. Unpainted plates better represent this, because they are more camouflaged. The bad guys wouldn't be dressed in some color which obviously contrasted the environment, so you'll be able to better identify and neutralize them. Just like the brown paper targets are tougher to see in the woods than in a wide open bay. Natural terrain offers several challenges to the sport, which I welcome because they create a more meaningful and challenging shooting environment. Footing isn't always as ideal as pressed gravel in a bay, which is the whole point, to trudge along and adapt to the environment. I for one always prefer natural terrain over bays.

As far as the plates needing additional welding, I've personally heard many shooters complain about this at several matches. I have never seen a plate spin if the shooter made a solid shot, unless he/she was using too light of a load or not enough choke. I don't think that there needs to be a lip on the back, that would make it too easy to knock the plates off. What has worked to minimize the spin issue at our local club matches is making the base and stand narrower. If a 5x5 plate has a 2.5x2.5 base on a 2.5x2.5 stand, then there's little chance of it spinning, yet it has enough room to move on the stand and not fall if the shooter didn't put enough pattern on it.

Ryan,

Well said from the guy that got 3rd place in Tac Optic. Why would you want to make any changes at all?

The painted plates would make it slower and messier but we are playing a game not training for combat or LE. So why not make the game about shooting not about target identification?

In regards to the spinning plates. I have no doubt that I was not hitting the plates as well as I could have been. Especially with my pistol! I think I could hear you all laughing after ever shot was for fired. I don;t have a problem at all with a plate that spins and needs another shot or two but when you simply can't knock it off becauseof fault lines limiting your lateral movement then I have a problem.

I was using WWB 9mm and a Walmart 8 shot with a Modified choke so it wasn't light loads or loose patterns that caused those plates to spin. Think of it this way. Say on stage 10 when there were 2 or 3 chances at shooting a double and you shot for the double but spun one or both plates sideways and could not knock them off You would lose 10-20 penalty seconds plus the time it took you to shoot. You gotta fix the plates.

Here is my take on the plates. If you try for a double and spin them, that is the gamble. We tried to eliminate the spinning as much as possible by making the base a capital "I". It didnt work as well as planned. Next year we may cut the top and bottom of the "I" off and it will make the base almost the same size as what Ryan suggested. These things are too expensive and time consuming to make to just scrap them. There is no way in heck we are painting the plates. Besides the aforementioned sticky mess, imagine all the bits of grass and crap that will be sticking to them.

[trickpony]

Let the plates spin and put stage 8 back in! Yeehaw!!!

[RiggerJJ]

the plates were fine, don't change them or paint them. you should see ours!

And we mix in no-shoot knock down steel plates to boot! and a whole stage with flying clays!

its 3 gun! its supposed to put you out of your comfort zone... learn and adapt

jj

[Westberg]

I would like to thank the staff and RO's for a great match. I finally met MS.Kitty We are honored to be a sponsor for this match. We will be back next year.

As far as conditions you take it as it comes rain, sunshine, heat, cold, mud that's all part of shooting a match like this. Everybody had to shoot at the same plates, some had problems some did not, you want to get creative in shooting a course then you should be willing to accept if it doesn't work out for you.

Thanks

[Jesse Tischauser]

Here is my take on the plates. If you try for a double and spin them, that is the gamble. We tried to eliminate the spinning as much as possible by making the base a capital "I". It didnt work as well as planned. Next year we may cut the top and bottom of the "I" off and it will make the base almost the same size as what Ryan suggested. These things are too expensive and time consuming to make to just scrap them. There is no way in heck we are painting the plates. Besides the aforementioned sticky mess, imagine all the bits of grass and crap that will be sticking to them.

Paint the stands then?

In regards to the potential doubles I was thinking that if you accidentally hit the 2nd plate and spun it not trying for a double. That would be a raw deal. I think the small bases will reduce the spinning to a minimum.

In hind sight it would have been faster for me to run out and reset the target and run back and shoot it again rather than unload a magazine on it. Being my 2nd match I learned a valuable lesson from those plates. Either way I am coming back next year. I just may be packing some 4 or 6 shot in my pocket just in case.

[abn-rgr]

Painting the stands isnt a terrible idea. Next year we will not be limiting you to 6 shot either. Bring the buckshot on. If it isnt safe, we will put clay birds on a stand for that stage (Im thinking of stage 9 in particular).

[abn-rgr]

I would like to thank the staff and RO's for a great match. I finally met MS.Kitty We are honored to be a sponsor for this match. We will be back next year.

As far as conditions you take it as it comes rain, sunshine, heat, cold, mud that's all part of shooting a match like this. Everybody had to shoot at the same plates, some had problems some did not, you want to get creative in shooting a course then you should be willing to accept if it doesn't work out for you.

Thanks

Thanks Ron. Thanks again for the sponsorship. Tell your boy Im still recovering from hanging out with him. Next year Im hiding.....

[Big Bear]

I appreciate all the comments by all the shooters. The team and I will work out the issues but we're not disclosing changes as of yet. You will enjoy the 2nd Annual Ozark 3-Gun Championship.

Stay tuned for match date announcement.

See ya at the Range

Kirk