JTew Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I am relatively new to reloading and need a couple opinions. I loaded a number of .40 rounds. Below are the components. Gun: Bedell 5" spitfire. Dillion 550B, EGW size die, Lee competition powder die, and the Lee FCD. Chrono is the MKIV XP Components: Zero 180gn JHP, Federal SP primers, mixed brass (mostly Federal), Titegroup powder (4.6gn). 1.135 OAL and a .420 crimp I went to the range to test my loads for PF before this weekends VA-MD Sectional. I had a bunch of ammo already reloaded to what I had used last year, that was 4.6gn of titegroup It made 175.5PF out of a Glock 35 with a KKM barrel. I used the same settings as above, and got the below results. Titegroup High Low Avg Avg/PF 6-8-09 Temp. 80, partly sunny. 4.6gn, 927, 905, 916.5 avg, 165PF Too close for comfort loaded some new rounds at 4.7gn. 6-9-09 Temp. 76, cloudy. 4.7gn, 1019, 965, 984.5 avg, 177PF Seemed like a big jump, so I tried some of the same 4.6gn rounds I had with me and got these new results. 6-9-09 Temp. 76, cloudy 4.6gn, 985, 938, 957.3 avg, 172PF My question is why such a difference with the same 4.6gn load on a similar day temp wise. Would the partly sunny day make such a difference in the load, or is this really within normal expected variations for a load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Re-run your test using the same head stamp brass on both days. You should see things tighten up some. Later, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 You need to run at least 10 rounds, and if you put a target on top of the screens white side down you will see the lighting variations in your readings drop a LOT. With similar weather other than lighting your 'problem' is likely due to the lighting. TiteGroup wasn't consistent for me, not consistent enough anyway. I had huge swings with temperature and humidity changes that stopped when I switched powders. I never had huge swings in similar weather though, it was consistent from one day to a similar day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Ellis Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Couple of things. Mixed brass. For major matches quit. Go with one headstamp. It takes out one variable. Your chrono. I used to run the chrono package for the Pact MKIV timer. Problem with it and similiar types who have open screens to the sky is that the readings will change depending on cloud cover, angle of the sun, sun brightness, and whether your wearing boxers or briefs. Eventually gave up on it and went with a CED and IR screens in a chrono coffin. Found my chrono results to tighten up a whole bunch and whatever it spits out to be gospel no matter time of day or weather. I've even chronoed in the rain and the results are close enough to the same when retested later on a sunny day. In your case you went from partly cloudy to cloudy. Thats enough to change what the chrono reads. Believe the cloudy day readings. Open screen chronos work best on overcast days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 You need to run at least 10 rounds, and if you put a target on top of the screens white side down you will see the lighting variations in your readings drop a LOT. With similar weather other than lighting your 'problem' is likely due to the lighting.TiteGroup wasn't consistent for me, not consistent enough anyway. I had huge swings with temperature and humidity changes that stopped when I switched powders. I never had huge swings in similar weather though, it was consistent from one day to a similar day. This... It was your lighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTew Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 You need to run at least 10 rounds, and if you put a target on top of the screens white side down you will see the lighting variations in your readings drop a LOT. With similar weather other than lighting your 'problem' is likely due to the lighting.TiteGroup wasn't consistent for me, not consistent enough anyway. I had huge swings with temperature and humidity changes that stopped when I switched powders. I never had huge swings in similar weather though, it was consistent from one day to a similar day. They were all 10 round strings. I will try the target method. I was looking for the results of the second day with as close to 950fps as I could get and the 172PF I thought was a safe margin. Thats what I thought I would get on the first day. I will try again tomorrow with the same batch. Hopefully its stays in the 172PF area. HSMITH, what powder is more consistent for you? When my TG runs out, I have about 3lbs of VV320 to try. Will that be a more consistent powder? Thanks again for the responses. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTew Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Couple of things.Mixed brass. For major matches quit. Go with one headstamp. It takes out one variable. Your chrono. I used to run the chrono package for the Pact MKIV timer. Problem with it and similiar types who have open screens to the sky is that the readings will change depending on cloud cover, angle of the sun, sun brightness, and whether your wearing boxers or briefs. Eventually gave up on it and went with a CED and IR screens in a chrono coffin. Found my chrono results to tighten up a whole bunch and whatever it spits out to be gospel no matter time of day or weather. I've even chronoed in the rain and the results are close enough to the same when retested later on a sunny day. In your case you went from partly cloudy to cloudy. Thats enough to change what the chrono reads. Believe the cloudy day readings. Open screen chronos work best on overcast days. This makes me feel more confident. I will try to get the same headstamp and use the target HSMITH mentioned and see what tomorrow brings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I have better consistency and much nicer shooting loads with plain Clays, it isn't without risk though so do a search and read up on it. 320 is a nice 40 powder, as is E3. If you stick with the short loads E3 will be a good choice. Set the target on top so both sensors are in the shade and the sensors are looking up at the white target, you might have to put a couple on there to get everything covered, but when you do the chrono you have is accurate and consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 I have better consistency and much nicer shooting loads with plain Clays, it isn't without risk though so do a search and read up on it. 320 is a nice 40 powder, as is E3. If you stick with the short loads E3 will be a good choice. Set the target on top so both sensors are in the shade and the sensors are looking up at the white target, you might have to put a couple on there to get everything covered, but when you do the chrono you have is accurate and consistent. What about targets on the sides, box it off, or is the idea just to get both sensors covered ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 It is just to get the sensors covered and a consistent background for the sensors to 'see' the bull pass across. It won't work at all if you box it, the sensors are not IR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Keep direct sunlight from striking the slots in the skyscreens. Unless the sun is right overhead, some side coverage can help a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justsomeguy Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 You need to run at least 10 rounds, and if you put a target on top of the screens white side down you will see the lighting variations in your readings drop a LOT. With similar weather other than lighting your 'problem' is likely due to the lighting.TiteGroup wasn't consistent for me, not consistent enough anyway. I had huge swings with temperature and humidity changes that stopped when I switched powders. I never had huge swings in similar weather though, it was consistent from one day to a similar day. I must agree with HSMITH... the variations could readily have been caused by the difference in sunlight on the "skyscreens" of your chrono. I have found that I will have to turn my chrono sideways on sunny days to insure accurate results because if the sun is coming in from the rear of the chrono it will shine directly into the "eyes" of your chronograph and give startling results! That aside, I have found in my guns that TiteGroup must be loaded to the very limit of 4.7grns to insure it makes major with a 180grn bullet. For that reason I have started to use Longshot with good results. Sure, you have to use more of it, but it produces excellent velocities at lower pressures and will make major with any bullet you chose to use in any weather conditions at nowhere near its maximum loading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Ok the chrono has been covered but lets look at something else. Your ES, and I assume SD's are way higher than I have ever got with tightgroup loaded that densly. 4.6 grs under a 180 at 1.135 oal, Something doest jive. Your powder charge seems heavy compared to my scale. I make pf with 4.3 grs at 1.180 under a HAP, and 4.4 grs under a Precision delta FMJ, What kinda powder scale are you using and is your measure consistent ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTew Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Ok the chrono has been covered but lets look at something else. Your ES, and I assume SD's are way higher than I have ever got with tightgroup loaded that densly. 4.6 grs under a 180 at 1.135 oal, Something doest jive. Your powder charge seems heavy compared to my scale. I make pf with 4.3 grs at 1.180 under a HAP, and 4.4 grs under a Precision delta FMJ, What kinda powder scale are you using and is your measure consistent ? I use a Dillion electronic scale. I will measure the first 15-20 rounds untl it is showing a consistent weight, then I may weigh every 50 or so rounds. Being a new reloader I am trying to be careful. If I change the weight, I will cycle the handle 7-8 times into an empty case to make sure the new setting is getting the right amount of powder before I start my loading and weight checks. I am not sure of the SD as I am at work and do not have them with me right now, but what would be an appropriate SD for Titegroup? As far as the powder charge weight, I would not know if I was at the edge of 4.6 close to going to 4.7 or 4.6 going close to 4.5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alfie Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 +1 on using consistent brass with one head stamp. I found when loading that with one brand the bell was enough for the bullet to sit on the brass as it went into the seating die and on other brands I had to hold the bullet into the die. Obviously the length of the case varied. If you keep the brass the same you are minimizing your variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 +1 on the lighting. I only shoot TiteGroup with 200gr Zeros in .40 that load is 4.3 gr and comes in at about 169 pf out of my edge. A 180gr bullet will take more powder so my guess would be 4.5 to 4.6 gr is spot on. OAL is 1.190. aka long. Have you checked the consistency of your OAL, if the OAL is varying by .005 or more then this could have a small effect on the bullet speed. This happens a lot when loading if the press operation isn't consistent like seating a bullet with only one brass in, then seating with all stations having brass. TiteGroup is temp sensative, its hot here in TX, in the fall I was going to the Gator so I punched the load up a tenth, at the Gator that .1 gr and the cool temp made the gun hard to control and the Chrono came out 189 pf. The other question I would have is the chrono at the same distance from the muzzle on each test. If the Chrono is too close then muzzle blast can affect it. I put mine about 10 feet away, further if I am shooting my open guns, or the 357 mag. I had a CZ TS I had to load short for but I found that chrono results were about equal to the long OAL when using WST, 5.1gr with 180gr Zero, 5.2 with 180gr MTG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted June 10, 2009 Share Posted June 10, 2009 Another thing you might want to try is backing down a half grain and chrono mapping back up. TiteGroup is like the other Hodgdon pistol powders in that it will flatten out in velocity per charge weight increase with increases in SD as pressure gets high. If you keep going it gets VERY bad, and dangerous. I didn't think you could get into that pressure range at mid 170's power factor but I suppose it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTew Posted June 10, 2009 Author Share Posted June 10, 2009 Thanks for all the suggestions. It was a cloudy day today again, and I used the white target trick, used same headstamp brass and got the load I was looking for. The 4.6 load got me at around 955 - 960fps at around 172 powerfactor. ES was about 9. I think this will work fine for now until I can try other powders. Thanks again for the help. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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