Two things that came up recently...

[mhs]

I was ROing a stage, and after checking to make sure targets were pasted, I walked over to the next shooter, who was standing near the starting marks. Before I gave any commands, he held his Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left. The frame never came out of the holster at all as far as I could tell. He then looked at me, apparently waiting for a "Make ready". What would be the correct response on my part?

Same stage, different shooter. This one has a 1911. He unloads and shows clear, I say "If clear, hammer down, holster". He drops the slide, does not drop the hammer, and immediately holsters and takes his hand off the pistol. The safety is off. What would be the correct response?

Thanks, Mark

Edited June 8, 2009 by mhs

[lcs]

I was ROing a stage, and after checking to make sure targets were pasted, I walked over to the next shooter, who was standing near the starting marks. Before I gave any commands, he held his Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left. The frame never came out of the holster at all as far as I could tell. He then looked at me, apparently waiting for a "Make ready". What would be the correct response on my part?

Same stage, different shooter. This one has a 1911. He unloads and shows clear, I say "If clear, hammer down, holster". He drops the slide, does not drop the hammer, and immediately holsters and takes his hand off the pistol. The safety is off. What would be the correct response?

Thanks, Mark

5.2.2 Competitors carrying their handgun in a holster must have an empty magazine well, and the hammer or striker must be de-cocked. Anyone found in violation of this rule will be immediately escorted by a Range Officer to a suitable range or safety area where appropriate corrective action shall be made.

Why anyone would want to "Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left" at the start position prior to "make ready' is a mystery. Advising him/her of 5.2.2 would be appropriate and you could require "corrective action".

I would guess if the competitor would not comply, you could make a case for unsportsman like conduct or failure to comply with reasonable directions of a RO. (10.6.1). Hopefully, the competitor would not force an RO to take such drastic action.

Your second example falls under 8.3.7. and the competitor must comply or 10.6.1 could apply. Re-issue I,C,H,D and H.

[murkish]

I was ROing a stage, and after checking to make sure targets were pasted, I walked over to the next shooter, who was standing near the starting marks. Before I gave any commands, he held his Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left. The frame never came out of the holster at all as far as I could tell. He then looked at me, apparently waiting for a "Make ready". What would be the correct response on my part?

Same stage, different shooter. This one has a 1911. He unloads and shows clear, I say "If clear, hammer down, holster". He drops the slide, does not drop the hammer, and immediately holsters and takes his hand off the pistol. The safety is off. What would be the correct response?

Thanks, Mark

First Case: Disqualification for Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

Second Case: Disqualification for Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

Regards,

Jack

[ihatepickles]

On the first case, did the shooter chamber a round with the slide manipulation? If so, DQ. If not, the NROI ruled that a pistol is in the holster when the holster prevents access to the trigger, so no DQ, just a slap on the skull and an admonishment from the alpha dog.

On the second, no DQ, repeat "if clear, hammer down, holster" until the competitor gets it right. Apply frequent skull slaps after compliance.

Edited June 8, 2009 by ihatepickles

[High Lord Gomer]

Why anyone would want to "Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left" at the start position prior to "make ready' is a mystery.

I imagine it was so when he drew he could get a realistic trigger pull before actually loading.

I do something similar when dry firing my M&P. With it in the holster I put my right thumb on the backstrap and pull the slide back with my fingers just enough to cock the striker but not enough to eject the snap cap. That way at least the first trigger pull generates a click.

[G-ManBart]

Why anyone would want to "Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left" at the start position prior to "make ready' is a mystery.

I imagine it was so when he drew he could get a realistic trigger pull before actually loading.

I do something similar when dry firing my M&P. With it in the holster I put my right thumb on the backstrap and pull the slide back with my fingers just enough to cock the striker but not enough to eject the snap cap. That way at least the first trigger pull generates a click.

Probably, but nothing says he can't wait for "Make ready" and then draw the gun enough to rack the slide, reholster and draw for a dry fire/sight picture before actually loading.

[lcs]

Why anyone would want to "Glock in his holster with his right hand, and racked the slide with his left" at the start position prior to "make ready' is a mystery.

I imagine it was so when he drew he could get a realistic trigger pull before actually loading.

I do something similar when dry firing my M&P. With it in the holster I put my right thumb on the backstrap and pull the slide back with my fingers just enough to cock the striker but not enough to eject the snap cap. That way at least the first trigger pull generates a click.

When the "make ready" command is given, you can remove the gun from the holster, rack the slide and take a sight picture and dry fire". So, no reason to "rack the slide" while in the holster.

[uscbigdawg]

On item #1, I'd ask him to draw his pistol, show it clear and drop the striker. Then calmly explain to him that what he did really doesn't make a whole lot of sense since he can do all that after I say Make Ready. Doing what he did before Make Ready makes folks a little nervous. Then proceed. I'm 50/50 on the Unsafe Gun Handling, but could agree.

On item #2, the range isn't clear 'til he drops the hammer, IMHO.

Rich

[Flexmoney]

Wow...both of those are rather goofy.

You might have to expand on your "new shooter meeting" and explain some of that to them in better detail.

[mhs]

Concerning the first case, I had recently read the corrections to the rules, and the A3 addition

"Handling (as in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding or gripping a

firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible."

came to mind. Since the trigger guard was covered the whole time, the gun was never handled. The only thing that I can see that should have been done under the rules was to make him show clear, and then follow with "If clear, hammer down, holster", and then "Make ready".

Concerning the second, what seems to be the key issue is whether the gun is presumed to be loaded until the hammer is dropped following "If clear, hammer down, holster". If the gun is presumed loaded, what he did would be a DQ offense.

I asked several people with considerable experience, and came to no clear consensus on either issue.

[Gary Stevens]

I got asked about this at the Indiana Sectional match this weekend. I am begining to think that there is always another, as Flex put it, "goofy" thing someone will come up with.

My thought was that due to the trigger being covered, that USGH does not apply. I really think that someone needs to have a serious talk with this fellow although it may ultimately not do any good without a way to address it.

As to the second, the RO is in charge of the range. Simply do not allow the shooter to leave the range without pulling the trigger. If he refuses, after being told why the trigger must be pulled, issue a 10.6 DQ and move on. Some folks can be reasoned with, others require a 2x4 between the eyes.

Gary

[mhs]

I got asked about this at the Indiana Sectional match this weekend. I am begining to think that there is always another, as Flex put it, "goofy" thing someone will come up with.

My thought was that due to the trigger being covered, that USGH does not apply. I really think that someone needs to have a serious talk with this fellow although it may ultimately not do any good without a way to address it.

As to the second, the RO is in charge of the range. Simply do not allow the shooter to leave the range without pulling the trigger. If he refuses, after being told why the trigger must be pulled, issue a 10.6 DQ and move on. Some folks can be reasoned with, others require a 2x4 between the eyes.

Gary

Interestingly, I was discussing the first shooter with another RO and found that someone with the same description had done the same thing on his stage.

For the second, the shooter in question had just had a jam at the end of the stage and was pretty wired. I'm certain that he did not intentionally fail to drop the hammer, he just forgot. When prompted, he appeared shocked that his gun was cocked, and immediately complied. I definitely do not think that he deserved a DQ, but am wondering if I failed to follow the letter of the rules in not doing so.

Mark

[SA Friday]

I got asked about this at the Indiana Sectional match this weekend. I am begining to think that there is always another, as Flex put it, "goofy" thing someone will come up with.

My thought was that due to the trigger being covered, that USGH does not apply. I really think that someone needs to have a serious talk with this fellow although it may ultimately not do any good without a way to address it.

As to the second, the RO is in charge of the range. Simply do not allow the shooter to leave the range without pulling the trigger. If he refuses, after being told why the trigger must be pulled, issue a 10.6 DQ and move on. Some folks can be reasoned with, others require a 2x4 between the eyes.

Gary

Interestingly, I was discussing the first shooter with another RO and found that someone with the same description had done the same thing on his stage.

For the second, the shooter in question had just had a jam at the end of the stage and was pretty wired. I'm certain that he did not intentionally fail to drop the hammer, he just forgot. When prompted, he appeared shocked that his gun was cocked, and immediately complied. I definitely do not think that he deserved a DQ, but am wondering if I failed to follow the letter of the rules in not doing so.

Mark

The way I see it, the course of fire isn't finished until the 'range is clear' command, so having him unholster and drop the hammer is within reason and the rules. As the RO you have to ensure he's within safety parameters before the end of course of fire.

As for the first guy, I would have explained to him to not do that, and told the RM so they could talk to him about it. I don't really care if it's skirting the rules or not. He's manipulating the firearm before the LAMR command outside of a safety area. That's just stupid and not necessary regardless if the trigger is not accessable. Second offense would have been 10.6, bu-bye for it.

[Nik Habicht]

For the second, the shooter in question had just had a jam at the end of the stage and was pretty wired. I'm certain that he did not intentionally fail to drop the hammer, he just forgot. When prompted, he appeared shocked that his gun was cocked, and immediately complied. I definitely do not think that he deserved a DQ, but am wondering if I failed to follow the letter of the rules in not doing so.

Mark

Assuming that the mag was out of the gun, you did the right thing. Mag/ammo in the gun, he holstered a single action without applying the safety with the hammer cocked = match DQ....

[Gary Stevens]

You can issue the DQ, but you also have to back it up. The only way to do that is with a specific rule violation, or a narrative that will allow an Arbitration committee to uphold the DQ.

I think you might be hard pressed to back up the 10.6 based on the actions of the shooter, goofy as they might be.

[Fireant]

Wait a minute here, the gun is considered loaded until the range is clear call is made. If I drop my gun at the same point that this guy holstered I'm DQ'd, so if I holster a handgun in single action mode with the safety off I should still be DQ'd the rule is very clear. We have a set beginning and a set end of the COF and when the gun is considered safe and when it is considered loaded.

[SA Friday]

You can issue the DQ, but you also have to back it up. The only way to do that is with a specific rule violation, or a narrative that will allow an Arbitration committee to uphold the DQ.

I think you might be hard pressed to back up the 10.6 based on the actions of the shooter, goofy as they might be.

10.6.1 Competitors will be disqualified from a match for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unsportsmanlike. Examples of unsportsmanlike

conduct include, but are not limited to, cheating, dishonesty,

failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official, or

any behavior likely to bring the sport into disrepute. The Range Master

must be notified as soon as possible.

10.6.2 Other persons may be expelled from the range for conduct which a

Range Officer deems to be unacceptable. Examples of unacceptable

conduct include, but are not limited to, failing to comply with the reasonable

directions of a Match Official, interference with the operation

of a course of fire and/or a competitor’s attempt thereof, and any other

behaviour likely to bring the sport into disrepute.

This is what I would quote for the DQ as I stated a warning would have been issued by me and then referred to RM/MD for further discussion with the shooter. A second offense of completely racking the slide of a firearm, even while still holstered, is simply unsafe and smacks in the face of the intent of 10.5.1.

[George Jones]

Wait a minute here, the gun is considered loaded until the range is clear call is made. If I drop my gun at the same point that this guy holstered I'm DQ'd, so if I holster a handgun in single action mode with the safety off I should still be DQ'd the rule is very clear. We have a set beginning and a set end of the COF and when the gun is considered safe and when it is considered loaded.

Well...... you can't directly compare the two.

The dropped gun rule (10.5.3) says "loaded or not".

The holstered rule (10.5.11 and 10.5.11.1) say "loaded".

Appendix A3 defines "loaded firearm".

[ihatepickles]

the gun is considered loaded until the range is clear call is made.

Can you quote the rule that backs this statement up?

[Fireant]

the gun is considered loaded until the range is clear call is made.

Can you quote the rule that backs this statement up?

Nope, I didn't see the loaded or not part in there.

[Gary Stevens]

Also remember the first post said the gun was a Glock. When he failed to pull the trigger, he only holstered the gun in the same condition that he would when starting the course.

Also reasonable request will be viewed in and of it's self. The RO might feel that 50 push ups is reasonable before the make ready command, but I might disagree. The shooter is doing nothing illegal by the rulebook. Unusual, goofy, stupid, etc. but not illegal per the rulebook. It is like the no bullet flipping situation. It is not illegal, and cannot be enforced unless other circumstances prevail. Just because an RO does not like a particular action doesn't count. It is only what is in the rulebook which gives certain latitude for explaining what the shooter did. The buck still stops with the RO proving their case.

Gary

Edited June 9, 2009 by Gary Stevens

[eak]

I would say pickles first post would be the most accurate course of action, although these two shooters did something really goofy, my 2 cents anyhow.

[Gary Stevens]

After some consultation with those wiser than me (which includes most everyone) I think 5.2.2 could be invoked on the guy with the slide back while in the holster. Perhaps enough corrective action drills might cure this action.

Gary

[BritinUSA]

I believe that in both cases, a slap in the face with a wet fish is the appropriate response. Now if I could just get someone to add that to the rule book we would be all set.

[George Jones]

I believe that in both cases, a slap in the face with a wet fish is the appropriate response. Now if I could just get someone to add that to the rule book we would be all set.

Carp? Grouper?

Maybe the more extreme - a hammerhead?