Zaitsev Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Hey guys, I'm an IPSC shooter from Quebec and I plan to shoot USPSA this summer. I shoot production in Quebec and I'll be shooting production as well in USPSA. I recently bought a Bladetech holster because I heard that race holsters were not allowed for production class in USPSA. I find that the holster is a bit to low so what I'd like to know is would it be legal for production to drill three new holes in the holster to make it higher? In fact, I already did it and I'm use to it now but I was wondering if I have to go back to the original setup of the holster. Thanks for your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Welcome to the forum and USPSA! I assume that you are talking about the BT DOH holster. You should be fine with your modification for the USPSA Production Division. Some people feel that the DOH holds the gun too low! In fact, that holster is not allowed in Single Stack. If you want official word, contact dnroi@uspsa.org. One other difference from Production IPSC is that USPSA limits mags to 10 rounds after the start signal. I suspect that is not a problem for you since I believe that Canada has some restrictions in that area. Have fun! Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
open17 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Some people feel that the DOH holds the gun too low! In fact, that holster is not allowed in Single Stack. Minor clarification---DOH is not allowed in Single Stack if you are male. If you are female it's fine. You can also get the Stingray hanger for the DOH and raise it up. The DOH is probably the most popular holster in Production, and drilling new holes to raise it up a bit should cause no problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaitsev Posted June 7, 2009 Author Share Posted June 7, 2009 Thanks for the infos guys. That's a good new. The 10 rounds limitation makes no difference to me since we have a ten rounds mag limit here in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Just remove the hanger. I am going to a diff holster, I think it's a little low also. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) Has anyone running the Blade-Tech DOH been DQ'd for the gun being beyond the 2" limit??? I ask because I measured the one for my SP-01 and my X-5 and both hold the gun 2.25" from the inside of the belt when using a CR Speed belt. Edited June 12, 2009 by staudacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Has anyone running the Blade-Tech DOH been DQ'd for the gun being beyond the 2" limit??? I ask because I measered the one for my SP-01 and my X-5 and both hold the gun 2.25" from the inside of the belt when using a CR Speed belt. DQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Has anyone running the Blade-Tech DOH been DQ'd for the gun being beyond the 2" limit??? I ask because I measered the one for my SP-01 and my X-5 and both hold the gun 2.25" from the inside of the belt when using a CR Speed belt. DQ? Well, I can't find grounds for a DQ --- but I can't find any language either that tells me concretely what to do with a competitor whose equipment doesn't meet (and can't be adjusted to meet) the 2" rule..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Has anyone running the Blade-Tech DOH been DQ'd for the gun being beyond the 2" limit??? I ask because I measered the one for my SP-01 and my X-5 and both hold the gun 2.25" from the inside of the belt when using a CR Speed belt. DQ? Sorry, DQ'd is not correct. I should have asked has anyone been required to alter their holster to satisfy 5.2.5.2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Has anyone running the Blade-Tech DOH been DQ'd for the gun being beyond the 2" limit??? I ask because I measered the one for my SP-01 and my X-5 and both hold the gun 2.25" from the inside of the belt when using a CR Speed belt. DQ? Well, I can't find grounds for a DQ --- but I can't find any language either that tells me concretely what to do with a competitor whose equipment doesn't meet (and can't be adjusted to meet) the 2" rule..... I would assume that if your equipment cannot be made legal to the RM's satifaction you would be done for the day wouldn't you???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Has anyone running the Blade-Tech DOH been DQ'd for the gun being beyond the 2" limit??? I ask because I measered the one for my SP-01 and my X-5 and both hold the gun 2.25" from the inside of the belt when using a CR Speed belt. DQ? Well, I can't find grounds for a DQ --- but I can't find any language either that tells me concretely what to do with a competitor whose equipment doesn't meet (and can't be adjusted to meet) the 2" rule..... I would assume that if your equipment cannot be made legal to the RM's satifaction you would be done for the day wouldn't you???? In theory you'd be shooting for no score..... ....I'm looking for something to back that up. As long as it's not a safety issue, I see no reason to stop the shooter from finishing the match..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Appendix D Item #10 for all of the Divisions requires a minimum of 2". Rule 5.2.5.1 and 5.2.5.2 detail the process. A holster not meeting that rule would mean that the shooter is in violation of Rule 6.2.5.1 and shoot for no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Appendix D Item #10 for all of the Divisions requires a minimum of 2". Rule 5.2.5.1 and 5.2.5.2 detail the process. A holster not meeting that rule would mean that the shooter is in violation of Rule 6.2.5.1 and shoot for no score. You meant "Maximum", right? I really hate to disagree --- but that's not what 6.2.5.1 says...... 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. So --- all divisions are contested at this hypothetical match. Under 6.2.5.1 the competitor competes (and is scored) in Open Division, no? If you want him to shoot for no score --- we could potentially hang that on the second sentence in 6.2.5 --- but that seems a little thin for me, i.e. not what was really meant by the rule, when read in its entirety: 6.2.5 Where a Division is unavailable or deleted, or where a competitor fails to declare a specific Division prior to the commencement of a match, the competitor will be placed in the Division which, in the opinion of the Range Master, most closely identifies with the competitor’s equipment. If, in the opinion of the Range Master, no suitable Division is available, the competitor will shoot the match for no score. On the other hand --- allowing the competitor to shoot for no score, would allow someone to shoot the match with a .22, a magazine in excess of the 171.25 mm limit, etc. (without score of course) I seem to remember arguing against an equipment distance limit for Open when these rules were in the working stage -- on the basis that Open should remain Open, i.e. the testing ground for strange innovations..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 The way I shoot I am essentially shooting for no score anyway....but I am still going to "fix" my holster before I go to Area 5 next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 (edited) OPEN MINOR Edited June 12, 2009 by JThompson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Appendix D Item #10 for all of the Divisions requires a minimum of 2". Rule 5.2.5.1 and 5.2.5.2 detail the process. A holster not meeting that rule would mean that the shooter is in violation of Rule 6.2.5.1 and shoot for no score. You meant "Maximum", right? I really hate to disagree --- but that's not what 6.2.5.1 says...... 6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division, if available, otherwise the competitor will shoot the match for no score. So --- all divisions are contested at this hypothetical match. Under 6.2.5.1 the competitor competes (and is scored) in Open Division, no? Yes, I meant "maximum". And I also forgot to mention the move to Open first. Just some late night haze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 So the upshot is that Open doesn't really have a 2" max limitation? Or it does and the rulebook is vague on what to do with offenders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 So the upshot is that Open doesn't really have a 2" max limitation? Or it does and the rulebook is vague on what to do with offenders? Open has the same Maximum Distance from Belt language in item 10 as the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 So the upshot is that Open doesn't really have a 2" max limitation? Or it does and the rulebook is vague on what to do with offenders? Open has the same Maximum Distance from Belt language in item 10 as the others. Mark is right... it's the same. I think going to open is plenty of penalty for production, but if we go by the letter here, it's no score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 So the upshot is that Open doesn't really have a 2" max limitation? Or it does and the rulebook is vague on what to do with offenders? It's now midday and I can type more clearly. If the shooter violates the 2" maximum (which applies to all Divisions), he would shoot for no score. Which Division he was shooting is not pertinent since the 2" limit applies to everything, including Open Division. So I guess you could say that if he was in Production (for example), he would first be moved to Open by the RM. At that point, he would now not meet the requirement for Open (Item 10 in App D1) and shoot for no score since there is no available suitable Division. There is no other "penalty" available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 So the upshot is that Open doesn't really have a 2" max limitation? Or it does and the rulebook is vague on what to do with offenders? It's now midday and I can type more clearly. If the shooter violates the 2" maximum (which applies to all Divisions), he would shoot for no score. Which Division he was shooting is not pertinent since the 2" limit applies to everything, including Open Division. So I guess you could say that if he was in Production (for example), he would first be moved to Open by the RM. At that point, he would now not meet the requirement for Open (Item 10 in App D1) and shoot for no score since there is no available suitable Division. There is no other "penalty" available. Or, under 5.2.5.2, the RM could cite anatomical differences and call it a day --- allow the competitor to compete in any division, right? Just trying to wrap all the rules around my brain..... Personally, I'd probably favor abolishing the limit in Open the next time there's a rules re-write --- that would allow competitors whose equipment doesn't neatly fit into any of the other divisions to at least play in the "heads up, run what you brung" division..... Either way --- I'd rather find wording that cuts down on the likelihood of RM discretion being used in the determination --- and that's not intended as a slam against NROI certified RMs, who would probably be fairly consistent in their application of the rules.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Wow, looks like I opened a can of worms! Well, I took a piece of Kydex and folded it over and drill holes in the right places so now I have a dropped no offset holser and it measures 1 5/8". So now I don't have to worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Jones Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Personally, I'd probably favor abolishing the limit in Open the next time there's a rules re-write --- that would allow competitors whose equipment doesn't neatly fit into any of the other divisions to at least play in the "heads up, run what you brung" division..... If you're going to back that approach, I guess you will also include all other equipment restrictions in Open - mag length, height of gun, location of belt, minimum caliber......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Personally, I'd probably favor abolishing the limit in Open the next time there's a rules re-write --- that would allow competitors whose equipment doesn't neatly fit into any of the other divisions to at least play in the "heads up, run what you brung" division..... If you're going to back that approach, I guess you will also include all other equipment restrictions in Open - mag length, height of gun, location of belt, minimum caliber......... Not quite --- but I didn't think we needed holster/pouch restrictions in Open. I had some minor concerns about stifling innovation --- and figured that doorways and gaps between vision barriers would see to it that we didn't get too crazy...... I also wanted a place for folks to try out thigh holsters and chest mounted mag carriers legally if they so chose..... I'm wondering what we gained by applying that particular standard to open --- other than consistency, which isn't always a bad thing in and of itself.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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