Cant get it right

[ChrisMcCracken]

Learn to shoot your hold instead of trying to shoot a spot on the target. When the pistol is as still as you can hold it, start pressing the trigger without worrying about the sights moving. In other words, don't try to shoot a spot on the target as your sights pass it. Let the shot suprise you.

I liked Brian's description of this. The gist was to imagine your gun is in a vise and that your buddy is downrange moving the target around while you try to release the shot. You can't control what your buddy does so just release the shot as smoothly as you can.

[bones507]

The dry firing to me isnt worth anything. I know, i know everyone swears by it and all but i was doing it for 10 mins a night for a few nights and i went out today and its like no difference at all. When im dry firng i KNOW there isnt going to be any bang, but when i get out there, there is a bang so automatically im going back to the old habits. I tried dry firing before i shot my first mag and it seemd to help a little but its like my mind or my body wasnt remembering it. i dont know how to type this out so it makes sense so im trying the best i could. It was just as bad as could be today, i mean all over the place, truly disgusting.

Im going to get in touch with someone whose name i was given to see if the man can spot anything, thats the only way im going to learn because i cant figure it out and i get mad too fast when im trying these different things out.

Thanks for all the help and advice guys, im probably one of the toughest nuts to crack there is, lol.

[Chris iliff]

The dry firing to me isnt worth anything. I know, i know everyone swears by it and all but i was doing it for 10 mins a night for a few nights and i went out today and its like no difference at all. When im dry firng i KNOW there isnt going to be any bang, but when i get out there, there is a bang so automatically im going back to the old habits. I tried dry firing before i shot my first mag and it seemd to help a little but its like my mind or my body wasnt remembering it. i dont know how to type this out so it makes sense so im trying the best i could. It was just as bad as could be today, i mean all over the place, truly disgusting.

Im going to get in touch with someone whose name i was given to see if the man can spot anything, thats the only way im going to learn because i cant figure it out and i get mad too fast when im trying these different things out.

Thanks for all the help and advice guys, im probably one of the toughest nuts to crack there is, lol.

First off, with a title like that I question your attitude. Not being a smart butt, but do you really think you can fix this? Well, I think you can! First, 10 minutes a night for a few nights isn't going to cut it. Try 30 minutes to an hour for a month or more. Second, point that gun at the berm and rip off 6 or more rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger. When you do that focus on the front sight and your face muscles. Especially around your eyes. Notice any tension in the face/eyes and relax it. Don't aim at anything, just be safe and shoot the dirt and focus on the front sight and the tension/eyes. You have to train your face/eyes. Basically you have to untrain them. I find if I repeat this drill every so often during practice sessions the blink/flinch stays away. I think this was covered in Brian's book. Anyways a better mind came up with it and it worked for me.

Edited to say: First post after your initial question by boz1911 is same as mine. There is your answer.

Edited June 3, 2009 by fourtrax

[jkrispies]

First off, with a title like that I question your attitude. Not being a smart butt, but do you really think you can fix this? Well, I think you can! First, 10 minutes a night for a few nights isn't going to cut it. Try 30 minutes to an hour for a month or more.

Remember that the flinch was developed over a long period of time, so the fix won't happen over night. Buy Steven Anderson's Refinement and Repetition book-- it will give you a bunch of ideas to make the dryfires more interesting. Indeed, if all you're doing is pointing the gun at the wall and sqeezing the trigger for an hour a night, yeah, you'll quit from boredom. If this isn't fun for you, then maybe it's time to look into crochet? Just kidding: keep the faith up and you'll overcome this hurdle with work, perseverance, and the right attitude.

[benos]

Tried again today after watching Burketts dvd. Changed my stance so im leaning on the balls of my feet instead of the heels, tried using a straighter weak arm and a bent strong arm, did the dry fire drills, tried concentrating more on the front sight than anything.

Now im worse off than before !!! The flinch isnt so bad but im all over the place, going more high now with a few flinchers but no semblance of a group at all, i mean none. this is serioulsy driving me nuts. Im shooting a Glock 19 with a light load of 125 gr lead under 3.8 grs 231.

All the book reading in the world isnt helping me worth squat. Im am so irritiated i almsot threw the gun over the berm, nothing would go right.

Just totally disgusted.

I seriously need to have someone who knows what the hell hes doing work with me but here in Vegas i dont know of anyone at all. I will try again tomorrow but i dont forsee any bearkthroughs.

Forget your stance, forget everything, and as Jake suggested, just:

pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights

Go easy, tiger. At a guess, you've now trained yourself to know exactly where the trigger breaks, so your flinch is just better-timed. Some things to try:

1. Put all of your attention in the tactile feel of the trigger. I find that this often distracts me enough to not flinch.

2. Look over the top of the gun and try to watch the bullets go down range (need to stand in shade and shoot into sun for this to be relatively easy.) Again, distracts you from what your hands are doing

3. Shoot 5000 rounds. Expensive, but it works.

4. Hold gun with strong hand, push trigger with weak hand index finger, no other contact on gun with weak hand.

5. As 4, but have someone else pull trigger.

My personal pet theory is that too many people grip the gun with their strong hand middle finger, which shares a nerve with the index finger. Try tightening your pinky on the gun, but not your middle finger.

H.

All good stuff. Especially 4 and 5.

You have to know, without doubt, that you are indeed NOT pulling the trigger straight to the rear without moving the sights, before your body and get to work and fix that.

be

[bones507]

Went out again after re-reading what you guys said and i improved. Main things i put heavy emphasis on was just getting the sight pic and putting that steady pressure on the trigger and going straight back, also made my face relax and as Houngan said to try to look over the guns sights so to speak which i had never done before. I was still flinching a little, but no where near as much as before. Actually put 5 in the same hole,lol. I am keeping up with the dry fire and i guess i just rushed too fast and expected too much overnight. My bad. At least now i got a direction to go in, im thankful to all you guys who took the time.

I did some shooting with a beretta 92 and a Glock 19, the Beretta because of its shorter trigger pull was doing better but the difference wasnt much after a while, it even got so i knew where the bullet hit after i pulled the trigger and the gun bucked. I guess the speed will take a long time to come but im glad i got as far as i did.

On a side note, my max distance where im effective so to speak is 12 yards, after that i would disintegrate. just for a try i walked out to about 30 yards where i hardly ever get on the paper at all and i fired 6 shots, 5 were about 3 inches away from the 3 inch bull and the last 1 i jerked low. I have never come close to doing that before, never.

So at least now i got hope.

Once again, thanks guys.

[benos]

Also, this may sound boring, but you might try learning what you need to do to shoot tight groups at 25 yards - off a benchwrest. This will teach how to shoot accurately much quicker than shooting offhand / freestyle.

be

[Bongo Boy]

Changed my stance..., tried using a straighter weak arm and a bent strong arm..., tried concentrating more on the front sight...but im all over the place

I don't think any of these things has much to do with the position and stability of the gun when it discharges--although of course if you're off-balance due to stance, then this is a factor. If you're concentrating on the front sight to the exclusion of the fuzzy dark blob you're shooting at, then yes, you're going to be all over the place.

But, I know first-hand that a shooter can hold the weapon with thumb and forefinger of one hand ONLY, stand in nearly any position he chooses, and place a nice group at 7 yards. If, for the moment, you'll accept this as a fact (it IS a fact, so just go ahead and accept it) then logic should tell you there is some other problem. Your own experience tells you this, since none of these things you've tried worked for you.

The exercise mentioned above, where someone else pulls the trigger for you, has a purpose, as does firing the gun with just thumb and forefinger, dry firing and so on. These exercises are intended, in part, to drive concentration (relaxed, fun concentration) to sight picture and weapon stability, while the trigger is being pressed. If you're thinking about grip and stance, these are distractions from the job at hand.

The symptom you describe is largely independent of weapon and caliber, as is failure to keep ones eyes open and control the sight picture through the press of the trigger. I still blink from time to time while dry firing, which seems kind of silly--oh well, it's a physical reaction and the brain needs to learn something to overcome what it's designed to do. One of my instructors often tells the students, "the gun goes bang and recoils. get over it". What he means is, if the gun goes off and you are not eyes-open and in control of its position and stability, you've missed your target.

Without an observant coach, you may struggle and learn some nasty habits. With all you've said, though, I'd suspect death grip and eyes closed at discharge. Both can be observed by almost anyone, but you're going to have to do it yourself eventually anyway and you're the only one who can do anything about them.

This is the kind of setup I've been given and it works okay:

1. Address target squarely, feet apart about shoulder width, bring one foot back about 6" or so for front-to-back balance. Stand without any thought about where your weight is--just stand.

2. With comfy thumbs-forward grip and both arms in nearly-identical, straight out position but elbows not tightly locked, stretch shoulders forward a bit.

3. Relax your strong hand, add a bit of grip with weak hand.

3. Establish your sight picture with focus on front sight, positioned over some spot on the target.

4. 4 step trigger exercise: (a) take slack out of trigger, ( press trigger while maintaining sight picture until gun goes bang, © hold trigger to rear momentarily, then (d) ease trigger forward until you feel trigger reset. Relax strong hand.

5. Repeat step 4 a few times. Relax strong hand, relax legs, relax brain.

If either hand feels tired...relax it, it's too tight.

To prove to yourself that you can hit your target by simply maintaining the position & stability of the weapon as you press the trigger, do the two-finger exercise. Fire at least 5 rounds using the thumb and forefinger of one hand only--doesn't matter which hand. Keep all 3 of the other fingers completely off the gun. This also serves to remind you that a tight grip isn't necessary to have control.

I'm no expert--this is the stuff that has worked for me and a crapload of other new shooters.

One last comment. I think the 'job at hand' is to get to the point where the sights look right when the guns goes off and you see the muzzle blast and the muzzle climb. This says you're staying with it through the discharge. Looking to see where you hit and worrying about the target is a distraction. If you first get control over the weapon, then tight groups will happen as you simply add in attention to repeating the position of the sights on the target exactly each time. Folks tend to do goofy things, I think, such as follow their shots around the target, aiming at previous shots to get a group or worse, trying to compensate their aim for previous shots. In some ways, an ideal target for certain practice wouldn't show any shots at all until all shooting was completed, IMO.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Bongo Boy

[JimmyZip]

There is another one that I remember.

Shoot groups while slowly taking up slack on the trigger. If you are suprised by the gun's report, you probably did not flinch. If you do this for a while, you will eventually not flich because you will be concentrating on something other than the guns report. If you are truly watching the front sight and seeing the sight picture while manipulating the trigger, you will probably not flich as your focus will be on seeing and not anticipating the report.

I know this sounds simple, and stupid t some, but when I get hinky and start flinching, I thing SQUEEEEEZE, and it just goes away. I haven't really had to worry about this in a long time, but it does help. Opening up ypur focus on the important fundamentals, and not on the sound and cuncussion, wil probably help alot. If all you are thinking about is the flinch, then you probably will.

my $2.00

[kar45]

The dry firing to me isnt worth anything. I know, i know everyone swears by it and all but i was doing it for 10 mins a night for a few nights and i went out today and its like no difference at all. When im dry firng i KNOW there isnt going to be any bang, but when i get out there, there is a bang so automatically im going back to the old habits. I tried dry firing before i shot my first mag and it seemd to help a little but its like my mind or my body wasnt remembering it. i dont know how to type this out so it makes sense so im trying the best i could. It was just as bad as could be today, i mean all over the place, truly disgusting.

Im going to get in touch with someone whose name i was given to see if the man can spot anything, thats the only way im going to learn because i cant figure it out and i get mad too fast when im trying these different things out.

Thanks for all the help and advice guys, im probably one of the toughest nuts to crack there is, lol.

Bones, you may very well be a 'tough nut to crack'- welcome to "the Curse of 10,000 Flinches".It is truly a malady for any competive shooter. There are 2 types of flinch, the flinch of the new shooter, and the flinch of the 'old' shooter. The new shooter flinch is a result of your nervous system not being accustomed to a sudden loud noise and jolt. The advice to stay with dry firing and slow fire with light recoiling loads over time, should help you. I have the 'old' shooters flinch, courtesy of 23 years of trapshooting. It is truly pathological, I mean flinching with a .410 EVERYTIME. Unfortunately, it is transfering over to my handgun shooting as well. This is the cumulative result of years of noise and pounding, and my nervous system is saying, "I've had enough of this, and in order to stop it, I'll give you a totally involuntary jerk of your whole body until you stop this activity". At 15 yards I will shoot 1 foot below the whole target, holding in the A zone. This occurs 4 or 5 times in a 200 round practice session. I fear that my cure is to lay the gun down for a while and try it again later. If I'm ever able to overcome this curse those D shooters better watch out Good luck in your shooting, Kirby

[Bongo Boy]

On a side note, my max distance where im effective so to speak is 12 yards, after that i would disintegrate. just for a try i walked out to about 30 yards where i hardly ever get on the paper at all and i fired 6 shots, 5 were about 3 inches away from the 3 inch bull and the last 1 i jerked low. I have never come close to doing that before, never.

This is good news. Don't focus too much on the downrange results or lack thereof, continue to focus on the One Thing...keeping the eyes open and the sights 'right' as the weapon discharges.

As for distance, nothing changes except maybe your ability to see (and correct for) shot-to-shot differences in the sight picture relative to the target. You can do 50 yard shots and put all of them on a standard silhouette just as you can at 7 yards. The group will be bigger, but you can put all your shots there if you keep doing what you're doing. There is nothing about the gun or the ammo or gravity that will prevent this--only your brain.

Once again, even a nearly untrained observer should be able to distinguish between normal, steady smooth (and tiny) motions of your gun as you shoot, and high-frequency shaking. If Observer reports a sort of 'vibrating' kind of small-amplitude motion, chances are it's Death Grip.

I'd would recommend making each and every shot you fire count for all its worth--which means using that shot as an opportunity to detrain your brain's concern about the bang and recoil. Since there's so much Zen going on at this site, then I guess the way to put it is this: you are not overcoming your brain's concern about noise and recoil...you are simply establishing the conditions under which your brain can be totally uninterested in them.

[benos]

Learn to shoot your hold instead of trying to shoot a spot on the target.

That is an excellent sentence.

Let that be you guiding principle, forever.

be

and the rest...

When the pistol is as still as you can hold it, start pressing the trigger without worrying about the sights moving. In other words, don't try to shoot a spot on the target as your sights pass it. Let the shot suprise you.

[Singlestack]

I got that from you brother.