uscbigdawg Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 So I just got my September/October issue of Front Sight yesterday and in my normal fashion read through it. Now, while I consider myself educated in shooting, I am quick to acknowledge that which I don't know. After reading Mike Voigt's article on Manual rifle, I have to admit that my head hurt. So, I wanted to find out (especially from the SOF guys) do they have any equipment/rifle setup and practice tips? Currently, I'm working toward a 700 in .308 (I love simplicity) with a Horus Vision or Leupold scope on it. After that, I figure that it will (when I get it...ever) go to a rifle smith to work their magic. Then, get my sling(s) and figure out bullet drop, attempt to figure out doping, and then just practice, practice, practice. Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 Check out the AICS system for the 700. They run around 475 bucks for the 1.0. Basically no adjustable cheeck piece but adjustable LOP. Tac pro shooting center is the best place to get one. Detach mags that actually work 5 or 10 rounders. 65 bucks for the 10 rounders. If you are going to send it off to get smithed check out GA Precision or HD rifles. They both do fantastic work. Rings and bases there are none better than Badger Ord. Another option is to check out Snipers paradise, They are having HD rifles build up a sweet system on the AICS, LW barrels, Badgers, blueprinted and trued 700 action, camo'ed and you can get the Horus vision scope in the deal. You can only get .308 or 300WM I'm building one in .260 caliber with an answer brake. Better BC for LR and minmum caliber that will make major with out burning barrels and wildcating cases. Less wind drift than the smaller stuff and the .308's. Roughly same energy on target at 1000 as the .308. I'm not completely sold on the HV scopes. The reticle is a little cluttered for my liking but it is a neat concept. I'm going with the gen 2 mildot from Premier reticles. Get a good wind meter like the kestrel 4000 which also give you Alt., Humidity, Temp., Baro and a bunch more stuff. A laser range finder (leica) and a ballistics program that will go on a palm or pocket PC. Exbal and HV both have good systems out. Makes life easier with changing conditions. Slings check out tactical intervention specialities. the arm loop is a quick detach from the regular part of the sling. A good log book and lots of practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 9, 2003 Share Posted October 9, 2003 I'm a n00b on this manual rifle business, but I think I'll get my feet wet on a budget. CZ rifles offer a lot quality and accuracy for not a lot of money. I am very pleased with my .22LR model 452 Scout . . . hopefully their rimfire quality will be similar in the centerfire rifles. They have models with removable magazines too, but I'm not sure if you can get five or 10 rds in the .308. Anyone else know? I already have some decent glass for it ... a Bushnell (Bausch & Lomb) Elite 3200 series 10X40mm with mil-dots. It'll definitely do until I know exacly which Leupold I want (and I can afford it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Rhino, To build on on the cheap look at the savage tactical series. They shoot great and are pretty decent priced. No detach mags though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 I guess I would start with a 700 varminter in .308 and see how it groups. 9X out of 10 it will be more than accurate enough! If a detatchable mag set up is requiered I would call H S precision, and get thier floor plate convertion. KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hi guys, Chriss made a great suggestion in checking out Sniper's Paradise. Kurt, I'm thinking in a similar direction that you are. I'm torn between building up a 700 through one of the good (forgive the characterization) 'sniper' gunsmiths or just getting say a McMillan Tubb 2000. Access to mags and general durability seem to be two flags here, but don't know much about the latter. Any info? Rich P.S. Chriss, on the USPSA Classifieds, Jeff C. is selling a DSA in .260 in case you're interested. Not a bolt gun but thought you might be interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Rhino,To build on on the cheap look at the savage tactical series. They shoot great and are pretty decent priced. No detach mags though. Chris . . . I am considering the Savage too. In the past, I understand the only real weak link in the Savage package was the trigger. I've dry fired one of their new triggers and it's pretty good. I don't know about the little lever you have to move as well, though. I don't think I can really go wrong with the either the Savage or the CZ. Whatever I save over a pricier rifle can go into ammo for practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 The HS detach mag system works if it is done by somebody that knows how to tune it but it is far from a quick mag change. The mags fit in tight and they have a rubber gasket setup on them. I have one on a 300 WSM. Unless you have the bolt back good luck seating the mag. The mag release is inside the trigger guard on the front. Not sure how they RO will call that one? They are 200+ bucks and the mags are equally pricey. The AICS is a whole stock/ Mag system for 475, with $65 mags. The system doesn't require bedding but some smiths are bedding them and getting about an extra .25 MOA out of them. The stock is about as bulletproof as anyhting I've seen. Snipers Paradise is putting the package deal on guns which seem to be the ticket for MOR. There is also a lot of good info for guys that haven't shoot long range before. Rhino, There are lots of after market triggers for the Savages. If you look around you can find some good prices on the 700's. The Savage did take a price jump with the new trigger system which closes the price gap some. Check the Long range and the sniper sites classifieds. There is usually a few good prices on rifles and optics. I know MV said the mag change shouldn't be a determining factor in who wins but it sure seemed to be this year. Why take a chance? Get something that will be competitive no matter how the set up the stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillL223 Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 The MOR side match was my first experience shooting anything other than an AR in rifle competition. I was slow and finished poorly due to mental glitchs and the inability to consistently hit targets off hand. My equipment was a stock Rem LTR in .308 with a cheap Simmons scope and a Harris bipod. If I knew that the course of fire would be similar, I would definitely go with a detachable mag system. Other then that, the only change I'm considering is better optics. I had looked at the 2002 stages and practiced for those types of stages (long distance prone) and I was fine on the 600 yd plates. Again, hitting poppers off hand @ 175 yds and upper A/B boxes off hand were the problem. Also, changing positions quickly needs to be practiced as is flat out speed on distant targets. I feel I refined the sight picture too much before breaking the shot. Bottom line, equipment doesn't matter much, practice does. Bill Hearne finished 3rd overall with a stock Sako TRG 22. He's a great long gun shooter and probably would have done as well with my equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickster Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Maybe some of you guys could help me on this one. Try not to laugh but... If a guy were a tinkerer and on a really tight shooting budget but wanted to try out Manual Rifle and couldn't or didn't want to spend the big bucks for a top of the line Manual Rifle outfit, do you think a moderately worked up surplus Enfield could work. The receiver is pleny robust, a match grade barrel could be screwed on and it already has a 10 round detachable magazine. Do you think the "cock on closing" would be a major downside? Or do you think that the cost of a barrel, stock and whatever else to set it up just would not be practical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 Hi Mickster, I would think that in that era that building up a Mauser 98 would be a better option. Oddly enough, Shotgun News, is running a series on homebuilding a custom Mauser 98 from an old action. In reading the first couple, it's written really well (including which actions to get and which ones to avoid) and seems to make it clear to understand how. From a tinkerer standpoint, I'm considering doing it as a side project. If nothing else, it's like building your first cabinet. It takes a while and might look goofy. But, it works and you built. Hope that's an answer. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Bill, The Sako TRG-22 is hardly a box stock comparable rifle. They run as much as or more than a lot of custom rifles. They are designed for LR same as the AI stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 10, 2003 Author Share Posted October 10, 2003 So, I came up with a matrix of Remington rifle comparisons, to which I've not been able to get a straight answer from our local riflesmith, who's known for building some great guns. Here's the deal. If you buy a bare bones ADL/BDL and swap the barrel with say a Shilen, is it better/same/worse than buying say a VSSF or Sendero or PSS? The big factors that I see that are involved here are the replacement stock on the ADL/BDL vs. any of the other three and the barrel accuracy to barrel life component. Really, it's kind of a question of, is the barrel that comes with the VSSF/Sendero/PSS worth the added cost of that rifle RELATIVE TO a replaced barrel on an ADL/BDL? It might be a bit anal, but forgive me as I'm architect by profession, a Virgo by birth and as such extremely maticulous and need information before making a decision. Any info is good and is always appreciated. Thanks, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kellyn Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 quick answer: get a Tubb 2000. There are a reasons why Voigt was shooting one. I fear that no matter what they do, a detach box magazine fed rifle will always have an advantage. I would hestitate before swapping out a remington barrel. Shoot it first! Every remington barrel that I own is very accurate. I have .308 and .22-250 barrels which shoot 1/2 MOA groups. I would not use a Mauser 98. While I love the old 98 and have a couple of hunting rifles on 98s, I would not build one up for a MOR rifle. The lock time is too slow and triggers need replacement. Same thing with an Enfield (another favorite rifle of mine) plus it's harder to mount a scope on an Enfield. If you want controlled feed, get a Model 70. I disagree with Kurt about cartridges. A real MOR setup should not be a .308. Get a .260 Remington or a 6mmX or even a fast twist .243. Less recoil, better ballistics, what's not to love! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtm Posted October 10, 2003 Share Posted October 10, 2003 Kelly: I agree, you disagree! Good point though! Does Remington make the Varminter in .243?? If they do I guess it would be adaquit, but then you know me! I have found in general that the .30 cal rifles "off the rack" are usualy more accurate and need less done to them, than the other calibers. This is a Remington only observation, and excludes the 22 cal Rems.KURT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 The PSS/VS type rifles will if you get a good one shoot .5-.75 moa. It is probably good enough if you are only using it in MOR. The actions are the same it is just a different stock and barrel and sometimes finish. If you are going to rebarrel, put a better stock on, true the action and blue print it just get the ADL. The one advantage to the PSS is it doesn't come with that stupid J lock on the bolt. The PSS/VS will run you around 650 add in the HS detach mag and you're up around 900. An ADL 350-375, True the action and rebarrel another 4-5 bills. Then you need to up grade the stock. You can find take off stocks from VS's for around 125 buck and then still have to add the Detach mag or go with the AI for 475. It comes down to are you going to be happy with a box stock rifle with a couple upgrades or do you want a custom gun? The stock will hopefully shoot .5 moa. The custom should be .25 MOA and at worst .5 MOA or it goes back. You can also buy the PSS/VS and make upgrades as you go. Shoot it until the barrel is toast and then do the upgrades. Richard give George Gardner a call at GA precision. He'll go through all the advantages disadvantages. I have to go with Kelly on the .260. It is the smallest round that will make major, has better ballistics than the .308. Not much more recoil than the .243 or 6x stuff. I don't see major PF being as big a handicap as it is in the regular 3 gun rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 11, 2003 Author Share Posted October 11, 2003 So I get my latest Brownells' order in today and as usual it comes with a New Products supplement. It appears (as it's on the first page) that Remington is selling new actions again. Specifically brand new 700 Small Short actions and Standard Short actions. Retail is $400. Too, they have the BDL-DM triggerguar/mag kit too (detachable magazine), retailing at $77. Thought y'all might be interested. Kelly, you make a lot of sense with the ballistics. I'm leaning towards .260 as it's a little less odd ball than 6XC and as Chriss suggested in another conversation has way better ballistics than .308 and still makes major. Like I said though, after all things tolled, it might just be better to snag a Tubb 2000 and throw a Horus Vision scope on it. Chriss, I'll call George and get some info. I'll let him know that you referred me. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 I'm going to do mine in .308 because . . . 1. I may need it for something other than playing games some day 2. Excellent factory ammo out the wazoo (like Black Hills). Methinks the 6.XX mm calibers need some handloading. 3. Cheap blasting ammo (surplus 7.62x51mm) can be used for both the bolt gun and the meat axe/battle rifle 4. It's old school . . . all the information about it is out there if you want to look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Rhino, .308 is an excellent choice. It would be my first choice IF I didn't already have 4 or 5 others in the same caliber. It is the best choice for an all around MOR/Tactical/Sniper style gun. Since mine will be mainly for MOR and maybe some F class shooting I'm opting for the .260. There is some good .308 ammo out there but it can be improved with handloads. RL15, IMR4064 and Varget are the powders of choice with 168 and 175 SMK's. Bill brought up one of the most important aspects and that is optics. Generally a cheap scope will bite you. The Leupold LR Tacticals are great. Nightforce is good but weigh in somewhere around boat anchor range. If you're looking for a reasonable priced scope check out the Bushnell 3200 10x mildot scope. It tracks good and has decent glass. They are going for about 150. I picked one up and mounted it on a Savage 110 tactical. The adjustments are right on and it didn't blow apart yet. It still isn't in the same class aa a Leupold but it wasn't 800 bucks either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhino Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 If you're looking for a reasonable priced scope check out the Bushnell 3200 10x mildot scope. It tracks good and has decent glass. Hey! That's a good choice! From my first message in this topic: . . . I already have some decent glass for it ... a Bushnell (Bausch & Lomb) Elite 3200 series 10X40mm with mil-dots. It'll definitely do until I know exacly which Leupold I want (and I can afford it). Apparently, great minds think alike. Actually, my acquisition of the scope was coincidence. I bought a Ruger M77 compact/lightweight, and the 3200 10X40mm with the mil-dots was already mounted on it. I intend to put iron sights and a low powered, long eye relief (read "scout") scope on the li'l Ruger when I can, so the 10X will need a new home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GordonB Posted October 11, 2003 Share Posted October 11, 2003 Hey can you take out a part in an M1A and safely make it into a manual rifle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 12, 2003 Author Share Posted October 12, 2003 Gordon, I think it would be something as simple as deactiving the gas system (not knowing the rifle, this is a guess). For instance Jake Kempton used an AR with a 'bolt handle' tapped to the bolt and fed 80 grain (NRA Highpower) loads into the gun by doing something with the gas block. Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uscbigdawg Posted October 13, 2003 Author Share Posted October 13, 2003 On a gear note, have any of you had experience with the Shilen barrels that are pre-threaded in Brownell's? In checking with Remington, they make only one rifle (that's worth buying) in either .260 or 7mm-08 (thanks Chriss...this is your fault ) and both with pencil mountain barrels. So, an easy fix is to re-barrel an ADL and put an AI or factory detachable magazine floor plate on. Any thoughts or even better experiences with these barrels and their fit, finish, accuracy, wear life, install difficulty, etc. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 Rich, No problem I'm good with other peoples money. Depending on skill level of gunsmithing I think I would send it out. Shilen is a decent barrel. My first choice would be a Rock, LW, or Hart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paraman1 Posted October 14, 2003 Share Posted October 14, 2003 There are a couple routes to go on this but here is what I have been thinking . A rem. 700 VLS in .243 with a 5-15 Bushnell elite 3200 on a loopy 1 piece base and rings . I can glass bed the rifle myself and I reload . Both my .223 VLS and my 22-250 VS shoot sub 1/2 MOA (Just gotta load them way out due to Remmys lawyerproof throating) so I am assuming I will get just as good , or at least close , out of another one . George Vais shop is just down the street from my house so I will have him put a brake on . The detachable mags have been a pain to get to run right so I will see how many rounds I can stick on the rifle . I am not too worried about bulletproofing the rifle as most MOR matches arent exactly a torture test for the rifles . The .243 has excellent ballistics and with a brake you can call your own shots . If after you have shot the snot out of it and you still think you need a different caliber you can send it out and have it rebarreled to whatever Short Action caliber you want and go from there . Just my .02 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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