When is a gun considered to be holstered?

[Fireant]

Going back to the holstering a gun in single action mode with the safety not applied, when is the gun holstered? I think as soon as the trigger is covered you have commited the safety infraction. Sombody yesterday said that if your hand is still on the gun it is not holstered. Is there a definition of holstered gun that I am missing? Do we need a clarification on when a gun is considered holstered?

[George Jones]

Going back to the holstering a gun in single action mode with the safety not applied, when is the gun holstered? I think as soon as the trigger is covered you have commited the safety infraction. Sombody yesterday said that if your hand is still on the gun it is not holstered. Is there a definition of holstered gun that I am missing? Do we need a clarification on when a gun is considered holstered?

Although there is no direct definition of a holstered gun, there are rules/definitions which describe the flip side.

Rule 5.2.7 (particularly 5.2.7.4) list unacceptable holsters and there is a new definition (see this) which defines "handling".

Keeping the hand on a holstered gun is not a problem as long as the holster is legal and the trigger is not accessible. You should have asked "someone" to show you the rule.

[mactiger]

Going back to the holstering a gun in single action mode with the safety not applied, when is the gun holstered? I think as soon as the trigger is covered you have commited the safety infraction. Sombody yesterday said that if your hand is still on the gun it is not holstered. Is there a definition of holstered gun that I am missing? Do we need a clarification on when a gun is considered holstered?

This is from an official NROI ruling concerning drawing while facing uprange, but I think the language is pretty clear about when the gun is considered "drawn", and you could infer that if it's "drawn", then it's not holstered.

Ruling

In order to assure consistent application of this rule, the following shall apply: After the start signal, regardless of the type of holster used, access to the trigger is prohibited until the competitor has rotated his body sufficiently to cause the holster's muzzle line to have passed through the point which represents "90 degrees from the median intercept of the backstop".

The bold and italics are mine. I would say, based on this, that you are correct: as soon as the trigger is covered, i.e. "access is prohibited", then your gun is holstered. I'm not the official word on this, but it's what we teach in the NROI seminars.

I'll look for a better clarification, but I think this is it for now.

ETA: George provided more info in his link; here's some relevant text: Draw.The point that the firearm is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

Troy

Edited May 18, 2009 by mactiger

[Fireant]

OK, I knew there was something there that I was not seeing.

[SA Friday]

Interesting. I see conflicting points in what George supplied and what Mac supplied. If one's hand is still on the gun, then one could argue they are still handling the gun based on the definition and holstering has not been completed until their hand leaves the gun. But if the trigger is no longer accessable because it's in the holster, then is the definition of "handling" void at the moment the trigger covered and 10.5.11 applied regardless of the hand still on the gun?

[mactiger]

I don't understand where the conflict comes from. Handling and having an unholstered gun seem to be the same thing to me, per the information regarding access to the trigger. George said that you can have your hand on the gun, in the holster, provided the trigger is not accessible. Therefore you are not "handling' the gun. It seems to be the same to me: holstered/drawn is when the trigger is either not accessible (holstered) or is accessible (drawn). Here are the corrections directly from the USPSA web page:

Handling (as in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding or gripping a

firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

Draw.The point that the firearm is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow

access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

So, yes, your hand can be on the gun, if it's holstered, and this is not considered handling the firearm. It's holstered, and your hand is on it. The key is access to the trigger. So, if you stick it in the holster, cover the trigger, and don't apply the safety, it doesn't matter where your hand is, it's holstering a gun with the safety off.

Am I missing something?

Troy

[Joe4d]

One of the side issues isnt so much the hand on the gun it's flipping the safety of a locked single action while it is loaded and holstered. A flip "on" to correct a safety that slipped down or wasnt fully engaged is one thing. Standing at "make ready" and flipping a safety on and off on and off is grounds for a Match DQ under unsafe gun handling. IAW the RO class yesterday. But I do see your point how can it be unsafe gun handling if by definition it isnt "handling" unless the trigger is exposed.

[Gary Stevens]

One of the side issues isnt so much the hand on the gun it's flipping the safety of a locked single action while it is loaded and holstered. A flip "on" to correct a safety that slipped down or wasnt fully engaged is one thing. Standing at "make ready" and flipping a safety on and off on and off is grounds for a Match DQ under unsafe gun handling. IAW the RO class yesterday. But I do see your point how can it be unsafe gun handling if by definition it isnt "handling" unless the trigger is exposed.

Yep, my class.

I had a hard time believing that someone holsters their single action, then proceeds to "flick" the thumb safety on and off, apparently as part of their make ready routine. Undoutly though it is happening. I hope this gets addressed before I have to RM the Area 8 in August, but if not we will deal with it then.

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. Seems pretty clear to me.

Gary

[edwin garcia]

One of the side issues isnt so much the hand on the gun it's flipping the safety of a locked single action while it is loaded and holstered. A flip "on" to correct a safety that slipped down or wasnt fully engaged is one thing. Standing at "make ready" and flipping a safety on and off on and off is grounds for a Match DQ under unsafe gun handling. IAW the RO class yesterday. But I do see your point how can it be unsafe gun handling if by definition it isnt "handling" unless the trigger is exposed.

Yep, my class.

I had a hard time believing that someone holsters their single action, then proceeds to "flick" the thumb safety on and off, apparently as part of their make ready routine. Undoutly though it is happening. I hope this gets addressed before I have to RM the Area 8 in August, but if not we will deal with it then.

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. Seems pretty clear to me.

Gary

Gary and Mactiger,

Thanks for pointing this out as I'm guilty with this isssue. My question to both of you, gentlemen, is how does each rule relate to each other? Does one supersede the other if the gun is holstered and trigger is not accesible?

Thanks in advance!

E

[Gary Stevens]

You have to read each rule in context.

For instance, using the reverse logic of when a gun is holstered, it should be read that if you are standing around waiting to shoot, and you have your hand on your gun, that you are not guilty of "handling" even though you are physically touching and holding the gun because the trigger is covered. No harm, no foul.

Conversely if you strip off your complete belt, holster rig while the gun is still in the holster and drop it in your bag (outside of the safety aea) you are guilty of "handling" even though you never physically touched the gun. Specifically outlined in the rulebook.

While these two seem to be in conflict, actually they are not when you read them in context, and think about what the intentions are.

I hope you were not saying you were guilty of "flicking" the safety on and off while in the holster

As I always say our sport requires a bit of common sense. Unfortunately we all fall short on that occasionally

[edwin garcia]

I hope you were not saying you were guilty of "flicking" the safety on and off while in the holster

I'm afraid I do, as a matter of habit. Once I load and make ready, I holster it then flick it 'off/on'.

No matter what you and mactiger's response will be, I will definitely take it off my 'ritual'.

Thanks again!

[Fireant]

As I always say our sport requires a bit of common sense. Unfortunately we all fall short on that occasionally

Yep, and never get slack on safety violations. A GM gave me flack for DQ'ing a new shooter for this and said it was my fault it happened. Bull! I did not make him load at super sonic speed and slap that bad boy in the holster with no safety applied. I had to give the there is no gray area on safety speech and ask him how he thought the guy would rather learn his lesson: with a match DQ and maybe never do it again or with a little slap on the wrist and then put a hole in his foot next month(or the RO's)?

[JThompson]

One of the side issues isnt so much the hand on the gun it's flipping the safety of a locked single action while it is loaded and holstered. A flip "on" to correct a safety that slipped down or wasnt fully engaged is one thing. Standing at "make ready" and flipping a safety on and off on and off is grounds for a Match DQ under unsafe gun handling. IAW the RO class yesterday. But I do see your point how can it be unsafe gun handling if by definition it isnt "handling" unless the trigger is exposed.

Yep, my class.

I had a hard time believing that someone holsters their single action, then proceeds to "flick" the thumb safety on and off, apparently as part of their make ready routine. Undoutly though it is happening. I hope this gets addressed before I have to RM the Area 8 in August, but if not we will deal with it then.

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. Seems pretty clear to me.

Gary

Seems clear to me as well... no safety=DQ

[JThompson]

As I always say our sport requires a bit of common sense. Unfortunately we all fall short on that occasionally

Yep, and never get slack on safety violations. A GM gave me flack for DQ'ing a new shooter for this and said it was my fault it happened. Bull! I did not make him load at super sonic speed and slap that bad boy in the holster with no safety applied. I had to give the there is no gray area on safety speech and ask him how he thought the guy would rather learn his lesson: with a match DQ and maybe never do it again or with a little slap on the wrist and then put a hole in his foot next month(or the RO's)?

I've had new shooters "try" to holster without safety... the rules say I may say anything I want in regards to safety, so this being a new shooter and all, when I see them going for the holster without the safety and I simply say "safety." Now we can get into a big debate about whether or not this is legit, but the bottom line is, If I can possibly prevent an AD I will. Unless it's done very fast, I feel it can be corrected before a DQ is warranted, but more importantly, before the chance for putting a round into their leg/foot. My rule interpretation may be unpopular, but I will always stop and unsafe action if I can. Personally, I don't care if there is a rule or not in regards to safety, even if the rules don't give implicit permission to do so, I will error on the side of safety every time.

JT

Edited May 19, 2009 by JThompson

[Fireant]

JT,

I agree with you, I'll try to stop an unsafe action before it happens. I've told many shooters to engage the safety before they holster over the years. This guy was shooting production and I was waiting for him to decock the gun, the score keeper asked me a question and boom his gun was holstered before I could say anything. Way too many people want to hurry the wrong parts in this game. Slow down when you make ready(doing it fast does not cut your stage score) and then slow down for the ULSC. Go fast when the timer is running and slow when it is not.

[Gary Stevens]

I've had to give the "Loading and unloading is not a speed event" speech on more than one occasion.

[mactiger]

What Gary said.

Troy

You have to read each rule in context.

For instance, using the reverse logic of when a gun is holstered, it should be read that if you are standing around waiting to shoot, and you have your hand on your gun, that you are not guilty of "handling" even though you are physically touching and holding the gun because the trigger is covered. No harm, no foul.

Conversely if you strip off your complete belt, holster rig while the gun is still in the holster and drop it in your bag (outside of the safety aea) you are guilty of "handling" even though you never physically touched the gun. Specifically outlined in the rulebook.

While these two seem to be in conflict, actually they are not when you read them in context, and think about what the intentions are.

I hope you were not saying you were guilty of "flicking" the safety on and off while in the holster

As I always say our sport requires a bit of common sense. Unfortunately we all fall short on that occasionally

[Jaxshooter]

Fireant you definately made the right call. I don't care if a GM or anybody else said you should give him some slack he should have and was DQed. If we have rules we should adhere to them 100%, safety is foremost.

[SA Friday]

I don't understand where the conflict comes from. Handling and having an unholstered gun seem to be the same thing to me, per the information regarding access to the trigger. George said that you can have your hand on the gun, in the holster, provided the trigger is not accessible. Therefore you are not "handling' the gun. It seems to be the same to me: holstered/drawn is when the trigger is either not accessible (holstered) or is accessible (drawn). Here are the corrections directly from the USPSA web page:

Handling (as in “handling a firearm”) The act of manipulating, holding or gripping a

firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible.

Draw.The point that the firearm is removed or disengaged from the holster so as to allow

access to any portion of the interior of the trigger guard.

So, yes, your hand can be on the gun, if it's holstered, and this is not considered handling the firearm. It's holstered, and your hand is on it. The key is access to the trigger. So, if you stick it in the holster, cover the trigger, and don't apply the safety, it doesn't matter where your hand is, it's holstering a gun with the safety off.

Am I missing something?

Troy

No, I was missing something. Thanks for further explination.