ironb Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 So I was shooting today and my gun locked up on me (the pin that was put in the gun to hold in the grip safety, got chaffed, and caused the grip safety to stay dis-engaged!) Anyhow, while I was fixing the gun (with some help), the next stage started. I had to "hurry" a little bit to get setup for the next stage and get my gun ready, mags loaded, etc. I stepped up to the line and was asked "Do you understand the course of fire?" I thought I did, so I said, "Yes." It was a nice stage with a mixture of steel and some paper. I actually shot it REALLY well...however, I skipped the mandatory reload in the middle! Whoops. So I wound up getting hit with "6 procedurals" for the no-reload. Ouch. As this was a local "friendly" match, I didn't care too much about getting 6 procedurals - but I was curious as to why I got six instead of just one. I was told I took six shots after I should have done the mag change (although there were only five steel targets). If this was a major match, would I have gotten six or just one? (Just curious) thanks (btw, lesson learned here - I'll make sure and ask for the stage description in the future!!!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangeHooligan Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) Ironb, according to USPSA rule 10.2.4 , "A competator who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will occur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed." Many of us have been there and done that one. Don't sweat it bro, just live and learn. Edited May 12, 2009 by RangeHooligan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 the question is -Old School- the RO does not ask any more "Do you understand the course of fire" The shooter is not supposed to get in the start area until they Do understand. I still find my self asking the old question though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray_Z Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) Disregard Edited May 11, 2009 by Ray_Z Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 You just outlined one of the best reasons for reading the rule book. Knowing the rule book gives you all the information regarding what you can and can't do. That knowledge will give you an edge over the folks who don't know the rules. CYa, Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Possibly an illegal stage. Neither 1 nor 6 (if it were legal). 5 ? [moved to the rules forum - Admin] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironb Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 Possibly an illegal stage.Neither 1 nor 6 (if it were legal). 5 ? [moved to the rules forum - Admin] I fired six shots at five steel targets; i should have done the reload before engaging the steel targets. So the one per shot (6 total) makes sense. It was my own stupid fault for not getting stage clarification prior to shooting it. I think T wasn't really thinking about the stage, more about my gun and how it locked up on me. It's a GREAT learning experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) 10.2.3 says you can only be assessed penalties up to the maximum number of scoring hits. If there were only 5 plates, why 6 penalties? One for the failure to reload? Edited May 11, 2009 by mscott Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 10.2.3 says you can only be assessed penalties up to the maximum number of scoring hits. If there were only 5 plates, why 6 penalties? One for the failure to reload? No, that would be double dipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Should only be 5. On the bright side, you learned from the experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKSNIPER Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 So I was shooting today and my gun locked up on me (the pin that was put in the gun to hold in the grip safety, got chaffed, and caused the grip safety to stay dis-engaged!) Anyhow, while I was fixing the gun (with some help), the next stage started. I had to "hurry" a little bit to get setup for the next stage and get my gun ready, mags loaded, etc. I stepped up to the line and was asked "Do you understand the course of fire?" I thought I did, so I said, "Yes." It was a nice stage with a mixture of steel and some paper. I actually shot it REALLY well...however, I skipped the mandatory reload in the middle! Whoops. So I wound up getting hit with "6 procedurals" for the no-reload. Ouch. As this was a local "friendly" match, I didn't care too much about getting 6 procedurals - but I was curious as to why I got six instead of just one. I was told I took six shots after I should have done the mag change (although there were only five steel targets). If this was a major match, would I have gotten six or just one? (Just curious)thanks (btw, lesson learned here - I'll make sure and ask for the stage description in the future!!!) Under the above scenario would it have been ok for ironb to have a mag with only one round in it for the beginning and upon the start, fire that round and immediately reload and go through the COF from then on without reloading (if possible)? Just curious. JK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironb Posted May 11, 2009 Author Share Posted May 11, 2009 Under the above scenario would it have been ok for ironb to have a mag with only one round in it for the beginning and upon the start, fire that round and immediately reload and go through the COF from then on without reloading (if possible)?Just curious. JK No, I think the stage description said the shooter had to engage the second group of steel after the mandatory reload (but I never read the stage description, so I'm not sure). Got the results back from Sunday. Did okay on the other stages where my gun didnt get stuck and the penalties assessed. One of them I bombed pretty bad though (stage 2), but the other 3 were okay. It was fun. Hopefully I can redeem myself this weekend. http://uspsa2.org/match_results/match_disp...0&club=DLSC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 ...So I wound up getting hit with "6 procedurals" for the no-reload. ... Been there, done that, got the T-shirt! In my case, we were supposed to shoot the last 3 targets through a port between barrels, but I'd already disengaged my brain by that point and shot around the outside of the last barrel. Cryin' shame to waste all those alphas, but c'est la guerre! I call mistakes like this "mental mikes". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Miller Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I call mistakes like this "mental mikes". I like that description. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffWard Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 We had a stage last week... three paper targets, one long shooting box, one close shooting box, lotsa no-shoots. Stage rules: Engage each target from first box free-style, two rounds per (Virginia), move to the forward box, and engage all three with one round each, strong-hand-only. I got the strong hand part just fine... But realized on the third target, that I'd double-tapped the first two... Mental-Error!!! ONE-SHOT-EACH!!! It's hard when you're in-grained to squeeze TWICE on paper targets... Muscle memory HURTS sometimes. ARGH! JeffWard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wide45 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 10.2.4 calls for one penalty per shot fired when failing to make a mandatory reload. It is not above 10.2.3, so number of scoring hits possible is irrelevant. 6 shots, so 6 penalties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlamoShooter Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 10.2.4 calls for one penalty per shot fired when failing to make a mandatory reload.It is not above 10.2.3, so number of scoring hits possible is irrelevant. 6 shots, so 6 penalties. I think the penalties have a max to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 10.2.4 calls for one penalty per shot fired when failing to make a mandatory reload.It is not above 10.2.3, so number of scoring hits possible is irrelevant. 6 shots, so 6 penalties. I think the penalties have a max to them 10.2.3 imposes a max on penalties, but refers specifically back to "the above cases" cited in 10.2.1 (faulting) and 10.2.2 (non-compliance with a stage procedure)...... 10.2.4 specifically addresses the issue of not making a mandatory reload and specifies one procedural per shot fired from the point where the reload was stipulated until the point where it is performed, i.e. six shots, six procedurals..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 That is where I was hoping we'd go here. That is how the rule reads..."above"...but that sure doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 That is where I was hoping we'd go here.That is how the rule reads..."above"...but that sure doesn't make sense. Sure it does --- 10.2.3 sets a limit and applies it squarely to two particular situations..... 10.2.4 defines a different situation, and makes it clear that no limit applies. It might appear to be inconsistent, but I'm betting there was a precedent/issue --- and I'm betting it relates to fixed time courses of fire..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 We also have 10.2.8, which covers procedurals for shots fired with both hands when strong hand only or weak hand only is stipulated --- no limit there either..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 It appears to me that 10.2.4 is separated from the previous examples mentioned in 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 as 10.2.3 says "assessed in the above cases" so as I read 10.2.4 it would be a penalty for each round fired, regardless of how many scoring targets there are, so no maximum, 1 penalty per round fired. To see this you have to reference all the sited rules in which this applies. 10.2.1 A competitor who fires shots while any part of their body is touching the ground or while stepping on an object beyond a Shooting Box or a Fault Line, or who gains support or stability through contact with an object which is wholly beyond and not attached to a Shooting Box or Fault Line, will receive one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if the competitor has gained a significant advantage on any target(s) while faulting, the competitor may instead be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired at the subject target(s) while faulting. No penalty is assessed if a competitor does not fire any shots while faulting. 10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occur- rence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance). 10.2.3 Where multiple penalties are assessed in the above cases, they must not exceed the maximum number of scoring hits that can be attained by the competitor. For example, a competitor who gains an advantage while faulting a Fault Line where only four metal targets are visible will receive one procedural penalty for each shot fired while faulting, up to a maximum of four procedural penalties, regardless of number of shots fired. 10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 10.2 Procedural Penalties – Specific Examples I think the bold wording here means something as well. "Rounds fired after a mandatory reload is missed" is a specific example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 That is where I was hoping we'd go here.That is how the rule reads..."above"...but that sure doesn't make sense. Sure it does --- 10.2.3 sets a limit and applies it squarely to two particular situations..... 10.2.4 defines a different situation, and makes it clear that no limit applies. It might appear to be inconsistent, but I'm betting there was a precedent/issue --- and I'm betting it relates to fixed time courses of fire..... I don't think it makes sense to apply more penalties than there are targets...using the same logic of 10.2.3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I'm with you on that --- unless there's something I'm missing on standards...... If not, it might be time for a cleanup in the next version..... George? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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